Comments on: Free Dharun Ravi: Fairness vs. Justice http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Cali http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-289515 Cali Thu, 17 May 2012 05:30:25 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289515 <p>So true and so unfortunate.</p> <p>Minorities are labeled as backwards and no one digs any deeper to see if that individual person might be the real problem. For most, the ethnicity or race itself becomes the "root" of the person's flaws. On the other hand, the "All-American" criminals/bad guys are victims of their environment, troubled childhoods, psychological issues, financial stress, etc.</p> <p>I don't like Dharun Ravi and find his actions repulsive and appalling. But the way the media treated him was equally appalling to me, as an Indian-American.</p> So true and so unfortunate.

Minorities are labeled as backwards and no one digs any deeper to see if that individual person might be the real problem. For most, the ethnicity or race itself becomes the “root” of the person’s flaws. On the other hand, the “All-American” criminals/bad guys are victims of their environment, troubled childhoods, psychological issues, financial stress, etc.

I don’t like Dharun Ravi and find his actions repulsive and appalling. But the way the media treated him was equally appalling to me, as an Indian-American.

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By: jaykayDX http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289311 jaykayDX Tue, 03 Apr 2012 13:46:29 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289311 <p>First of all, dear 'Contemplationist', if PC sites like this bother you so much why waste your time visiting them? And we Do admit we're an ethnic block - the fact that this blog site is named 'Sepia Mutiny' in a direct allusion to the classic incident 'Sepoy Mutiny' that happened in India against British rule should have been a giveaway to you! What's wrong with uniting to consolidate ourselves against the majority? I mean, it's not like we're going to kill you all and steal your land which is what YOU did to the native Americans when you first came here now, did you?</p> <p>You yourself ADMIT there's no justice or fairness, so why so defensive against minorities that stick together? Against whites? Umm, of course since YOU are the majority now, aren't you? For someone who enjoys s much power, you sure do whine a lot as if you're some victim of sorts, don't you? If your rules and ways of dealing with minorities wasn't biased against us - you'd actually have a reason to rant against us - c'mon dude, you guy don't even play black musicians on Rock radio stations while black stations WILL play white artists who rap so quit playing the 'PC canon' card - start actually behaving impartially and treat others fairly and maybe you'll actually have a point about us 'swallowing the PC cannon' then. Oh, and your 'the browniez are howling' bit said more about YOU than anything else you posted.</p> <p>P.S. For the record - there is NO confusion to my opinion - Dharun Ravi is a voyeuristic jerk who deserves ALL the punishment he gets. It's amazing that someone who claims to be 'homophobic' will videotape a gay dude having sex - I mean, isn't he supposed to be turned off by that sort of thing?!! Sounds to me like the court isn't the only thing he's trying to fool - and the biggest fool is the man who fools himself ......</p> First of all, dear ‘Contemplationist’, if PC sites like this bother you so much why waste your time visiting them? And we Do admit we’re an ethnic block – the fact that this blog site is named ‘Sepia Mutiny’ in a direct allusion to the classic incident ‘Sepoy Mutiny’ that happened in India against British rule should have been a giveaway to you! What’s wrong with uniting to consolidate ourselves against the majority? I mean, it’s not like we’re going to kill you all and steal your land which is what YOU did to the native Americans when you first came here now, did you?

You yourself ADMIT there’s no justice or fairness, so why so defensive against minorities that stick together? Against whites? Umm, of course since YOU are the majority now, aren’t you? For someone who enjoys s much power, you sure do whine a lot as if you’re some victim of sorts, don’t you? If your rules and ways of dealing with minorities wasn’t biased against us – you’d actually have a reason to rant against us – c’mon dude, you guy don’t even play black musicians on Rock radio stations while black stations WILL play white artists who rap so quit playing the ‘PC canon’ card – start actually behaving impartially and treat others fairly and maybe you’ll actually have a point about us ‘swallowing the PC cannon’ then. Oh, and your ‘the browniez are howling’ bit said more about YOU than anything else you posted.

P.S. For the record – there is NO confusion to my opinion – Dharun Ravi is a voyeuristic jerk who deserves ALL the punishment he gets. It’s amazing that someone who claims to be ‘homophobic’ will videotape a gay dude having sex – I mean, isn’t he supposed to be turned off by that sort of thing?!! Sounds to me like the court isn’t the only thing he’s trying to fool – and the biggest fool is the man who fools himself ……

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By: N http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289232 N Sun, 01 Apr 2012 10:46:59 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289232 <p>I suspect that the suicide rate among Indo-Americans is seriously masked and underreported. I know of several that have taken place in my mid-sized city over the past 10 years or so. Yes, "several." Of teenagers who came from stereotypically well-educated, high income families, in some cases. These suicides are never talked about.</p> <p>The suggestion that tormented gays should just suck it up and move on, because that's what tormented Indo-Americans have always done, has a very dubious factual premise.</p> I suspect that the suicide rate among Indo-Americans is seriously masked and underreported. I know of several that have taken place in my mid-sized city over the past 10 years or so. Yes, “several.” Of teenagers who came from stereotypically well-educated, high income families, in some cases. These suicides are never talked about.

The suggestion that tormented gays should just suck it up and move on, because that’s what tormented Indo-Americans have always done, has a very dubious factual premise.

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By: port http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289224 port Sat, 31 Mar 2012 17:30:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289224 <p>The big problem with hate crimes is externalities, just as it is with crimes that clearly target certain kinds of people (eg a serial killer with an MO that targets black prostitutes, or a purse snatcher that targets old ladies in an immigrant neighborhood). The externality is the fear and terror that it creates in the mind of all people who share those characteristics. It is not only PC-ness, but allows societal control and bullying of the target group. Imagine the social codes of the South and how brutality undergirded the everyday conduct of the people. Hate crimes have an effect on the target group, that can potentially change a population's behavior and everyday conduct. Remember that quote from Brokeback Mountain, where Ennis Del Mar is recalling seeing the horrific fate of a murdered gay man:</p> <p>"My daddy, he made sure me and brother seen it. Hell for all I know, he done the job."</p> <p>Bias intimidation turns on whether concludes that Clementi "reasonably believed" DR was trying to intimidate him. It is a close case factually--could have gone either way with the jury. As for the other crime, he did spy or try to spy on TC. There is no reason to believe that this is an ordinary prank. If you knew your child's roommate was taping him during intimate acts and inviting others to watch it, would you be so sympathetic? This is not a typical college prank that one feels compelled to give DR the benefit of the doubt. He was given an exceptionally generous plea bargain (I speak that as someone with both prosecution and defense experience). He should have taken it.</p> The big problem with hate crimes is externalities, just as it is with crimes that clearly target certain kinds of people (eg a serial killer with an MO that targets black prostitutes, or a purse snatcher that targets old ladies in an immigrant neighborhood). The externality is the fear and terror that it creates in the mind of all people who share those characteristics. It is not only PC-ness, but allows societal control and bullying of the target group. Imagine the social codes of the South and how brutality undergirded the everyday conduct of the people. Hate crimes have an effect on the target group, that can potentially change a population’s behavior and everyday conduct. Remember that quote from Brokeback Mountain, where Ennis Del Mar is recalling seeing the horrific fate of a murdered gay man:

“My daddy, he made sure me and brother seen it. Hell for all I know, he done the job.”

Bias intimidation turns on whether concludes that Clementi “reasonably believed” DR was trying to intimidate him. It is a close case factually–could have gone either way with the jury. As for the other crime, he did spy or try to spy on TC. There is no reason to believe that this is an ordinary prank. If you knew your child’s roommate was taping him during intimate acts and inviting others to watch it, would you be so sympathetic? This is not a typical college prank that one feels compelled to give DR the benefit of the doubt. He was given an exceptionally generous plea bargain (I speak that as someone with both prosecution and defense experience). He should have taken it.

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By: Contemplationist http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289140 Contemplationist Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:09:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289140 <p>The problem with 'hate crimes' is not that bigotry is not-different from other motivations (like greed, envy, etc as you mentioned) but that the prosecution has wide leeway in application of particular statutes and ONLY POLITICALLY CORRECT GROUPS benefit from these laws, and the Dharun Ravi case is a perfect case in point. Every year in America there are many assaults on white and asian people by some young black males where explicitly racial comments are made and they never make it into NYTimes, and are never discussed at nauseating PC sites like this one here. Everyone has heard of the fake Duke Lacrosse case, and the Tawana Brawley hoax, but do you hear of the thousands of murders of whites by blacks that are documented by the FBI? Or the Rapes? Of course most of them may not be 'hate crimes' but a lot of them are. But sites like these are explicitly racial. You are just fighting to be another ethnic block, organizing against the majority of the country. There is no justice nor fairness. It's ethnic competition. All discussions such as the Ravi case are put in the context of a "minority vs minority" straightjacket. Oh noez lets not break our unityz! Minorities stick togethahh! Right. Against whom? White people right? So why pretend to be "fair" or "universal"? Admit you are an ethnic block and, further, you have swallowed the entire PC cannon. Now that teh gheys are on top of the hierarchy of "oppressed peoples", the browniez are howling. Heh.</p> The problem with ‘hate crimes’ is not that bigotry is not-different from other motivations (like greed, envy, etc as you mentioned) but that the prosecution has wide leeway in application of particular statutes and ONLY POLITICALLY CORRECT GROUPS benefit from these laws, and the Dharun Ravi case is a perfect case in point. Every year in America there are many assaults on white and asian people by some young black males where explicitly racial comments are made and they never make it into NYTimes, and are never discussed at nauseating PC sites like this one here. Everyone has heard of the fake Duke Lacrosse case, and the Tawana Brawley hoax, but do you hear of the thousands of murders of whites by blacks that are documented by the FBI? Or the Rapes? Of course most of them may not be ‘hate crimes’ but a lot of them are. But sites like these are explicitly racial. You are just fighting to be another ethnic block, organizing against the majority of the country. There is no justice nor fairness. It’s ethnic competition. All discussions such as the Ravi case are put in the context of a “minority vs minority” straightjacket. Oh noez lets not break our unityz! Minorities stick togethahh! Right. Against whom? White people right? So why pretend to be “fair” or “universal”? Admit you are an ethnic block and, further, you have swallowed the entire PC cannon. Now that teh gheys are on top of the hierarchy of “oppressed peoples”, the browniez are howling. Heh.

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By: NJ Desi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289120 NJ Desi Mon, 26 Mar 2012 07:06:24 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289120 <p>Couldn't agree more with you, S R. I've seen this too in my local desi community.</p> Couldn’t agree more with you, S R. I’ve seen this too in my local desi community.

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By: S R http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289116 S R Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:33:16 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289116 <p>thank you for such an articulate analysis, gayasianinamerica. dharun was certainly scapegoated, and i also hope that we dont lose touch of our collective struggle to define our own identities. i've wondered a lot about this case if what made dharun so unrelatable/easy to dehumanize was not that he was Desi, but that he was "the 1%", upper middle class and financially coddled, drove a BMW in high school and traded casual barbs with friends about his distaste for the poor. despite being a minority, Dharun did not appear a vulnerable minority, and his lack of contrition and defensiveness didn't help. its interesting that you say this case has not prompted too much reflection in the lgbt community. i think the fear that some people have is that in lgbt community you can always "play the gay card", and in doing so, the real story will never be told.</p> thank you for such an articulate analysis, gayasianinamerica. dharun was certainly scapegoated, and i also hope that we dont lose touch of our collective struggle to define our own identities. i’ve wondered a lot about this case if what made dharun so unrelatable/easy to dehumanize was not that he was Desi, but that he was “the 1%”, upper middle class and financially coddled, drove a BMW in high school and traded casual barbs with friends about his distaste for the poor. despite being a minority, Dharun did not appear a vulnerable minority, and his lack of contrition and defensiveness didn’t help. its interesting that you say this case has not prompted too much reflection in the lgbt community. i think the fear that some people have is that in lgbt community you can always “play the gay card”, and in doing so, the real story will never be told.

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By: S R http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289115 S R Sun, 25 Mar 2012 22:15:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289115 <p>i agree varun, its a lot to ask. insularity is a problem among all groups. i don't think we can change all of that on a broad level, certainly not overnight. but it is ABSOLUTELY possible to have friends outside of your communities, and there are those of us who do it from all groups. being desi is one component of our identities, it is not the only thread that can link us to others.</p> <p>the challenge with immigrant communities lies when there is a large concentration in a small space, like central nj, where its just EASY to mingle with people like you. there's no reason to branch out when there's dozens of Desis everywhere, even in public school and that kind of thing happens with all groups.</p> <p>but i do not think it is "asking for the moon" to encourage people to push their own limits and be open to those who are different from them.</p> <p>the painful component of the dharun ravi case is as i said before, the focus on the fact that "he's not a bigot", but what about the fact that when confronted with something that confused him, his reaction was rejecting & fearful, and he acted in a way to directly humiliate or shame somebody else. to me that is directly related to being raised in a relatively closed environment with little exposure to people who are different from him. i dont think this only happens in desi communities, im just saying that overall insularity and narrowness of experience contributes to the problem at large.</p> i agree varun, its a lot to ask. insularity is a problem among all groups. i don’t think we can change all of that on a broad level, certainly not overnight. but it is ABSOLUTELY possible to have friends outside of your communities, and there are those of us who do it from all groups. being desi is one component of our identities, it is not the only thread that can link us to others.

the challenge with immigrant communities lies when there is a large concentration in a small space, like central nj, where its just EASY to mingle with people like you. there’s no reason to branch out when there’s dozens of Desis everywhere, even in public school and that kind of thing happens with all groups.

but i do not think it is “asking for the moon” to encourage people to push their own limits and be open to those who are different from them.

the painful component of the dharun ravi case is as i said before, the focus on the fact that “he’s not a bigot”, but what about the fact that when confronted with something that confused him, his reaction was rejecting & fearful, and he acted in a way to directly humiliate or shame somebody else. to me that is directly related to being raised in a relatively closed environment with little exposure to people who are different from him. i dont think this only happens in desi communities, im just saying that overall insularity and narrowness of experience contributes to the problem at large.

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By: Varun Shekhar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289101 Varun Shekhar Sun, 25 Mar 2012 04:48:22 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289101 <p>Good and thoughtful comment GaysianInAmerica. Yes, let's hope this incident does not set the Asian, including Desi, and LGBT communities against one another based on some crazy idea that the Asian culture is inherently opposed to the LGBT one. Sensible, sober voices need to be heard and to prevail.</p> Good and thoughtful comment GaysianInAmerica. Yes, let’s hope this incident does not set the Asian, including Desi, and LGBT communities against one another based on some crazy idea that the Asian culture is inherently opposed to the LGBT one. Sensible, sober voices need to be heard and to prevail.

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By: Varun Shekhar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2012/03/17/free-dharun-ravi-fairness-vs-justice/comment-page-2/#comment-289100 Varun Shekhar Sun, 25 Mar 2012 04:44:09 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/?p=8619#comment-289100 <p>" Central NJ Indian community is deeply insular, and most of the Indian kids I grew up with are full of “casually” bigoted comments about people who are unlike them (most notably, about “white people”, a kind of defensive reverse racism), and very few of them even have friends who are not Indian, let alone friends who are white, gay and lower middle class like Tyler. Exposure to people who are different from you promotes understanding and tolerance, and insularity promotes xenophobia."</p> <p>On this point, you are really asking for the moon. How many Americans, particularly ethnic Americans from, say, Poland, Ukraine, Brazil, Puerto Rico or Philippines, have friends outside their community, and moreover, friends who are gay AND from a different class background. Don't expect ultra-idealism and angelic behaviour from Desis. It's not fair to them(us).</p> ” Central NJ Indian community is deeply insular, and most of the Indian kids I grew up with are full of “casually” bigoted comments about people who are unlike them (most notably, about “white people”, a kind of defensive reverse racism), and very few of them even have friends who are not Indian, let alone friends who are white, gay and lower middle class like Tyler. Exposure to people who are different from you promotes understanding and tolerance, and insularity promotes xenophobia.”

On this point, you are really asking for the moon. How many Americans, particularly ethnic Americans from, say, Poland, Ukraine, Brazil, Puerto Rico or Philippines, have friends outside their community, and moreover, friends who are gay AND from a different class background. Don’t expect ultra-idealism and angelic behaviour from Desis. It’s not fair to them(us).

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