Comments on: Subramanian Swamy Tells it Like it Ain’t http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Varun Shekhar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285854 Varun Shekhar Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:10:36 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285854 <p>Incidentally, on that Harvard Crimson article, the overwhelming majority of commentators support Swamy or defend him, and do not advocate any expulsion. There are just about zero comments about cow-worshiping, caste-ridden blah blah Hindus in that forum. What a contrast to this forum.</p> Incidentally, on that Harvard Crimson article, the overwhelming majority of commentators support Swamy or defend him, and do not advocate any expulsion. There are just about zero comments about cow-worshiping, caste-ridden blah blah Hindus in that forum. What a contrast to this forum.

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By: Varun Shekhar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285853 Varun Shekhar Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:06:11 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285853 <p>How about acknowledging their Hindu past first, then also acknowledging that there were good and bad, pleasant and unpleasant, features of that past. There were probably unpleasant things about their Moslem past as well, and certainly about the Moslem past in general. Claiming descent from some foreign Moslem country is distasteful and false.</p> How about acknowledging their Hindu past first, then also acknowledging that there were good and bad, pleasant and unpleasant, features of that past. There were probably unpleasant things about their Moslem past as well, and certainly about the Moslem past in general. Claiming descent from some foreign Moslem country is distasteful and false.

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By: Varun Shekhar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285852 Varun Shekhar Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:02:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285852 <p>The point is, that the Hindus can, and do, without apprehension or self-consciousness( which marks the behaviour of the "Abrahamic' adherents approach to attending each other's places of reverence) attend Buddhist or Jain or Sikh temples or functions. Doctrinal differences don't enter into the picture. It's for the atmosphere, devotion, contemplation and cultural familiarity, that they do. I've seen Sikhs and Jains, at least, come to Hindu events without any feeling of being different, let alone significantly conflicted.</p> The point is, that the Hindus can, and do, without apprehension or self-consciousness( which marks the behaviour of the “Abrahamic’ adherents approach to attending each other’s places of reverence) attend Buddhist or Jain or Sikh temples or functions. Doctrinal differences don’t enter into the picture. It’s for the atmosphere, devotion, contemplation and cultural familiarity, that they do. I’ve seen Sikhs and Jains, at least, come to Hindu events without any feeling of being different, let alone significantly conflicted.

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By: EsDawet http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285851 EsDawet Sun, 31 Jul 2011 07:54:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285851 <p>"This is an absurd argument. Just because some Hindus are spiritual tourists or find more peace of mind in the sacred places of other religions than their own is no proof that those other religions are doctrinally similar to Hinduism."</p> <p>Are any of these actually "religions" in the first place? Having said that, given that the concepts of dharma, samsara, moksha, karma come from the early Upanishads (which are Vedic) which predate Buddhism and Jainism, then how do those religion not have similiar "doctrines"</p> <p>Also, can you please show the historical sources that say 1) Manu Smriti was equal to Shariah and was the explicit law of the state in ancient India</p> <p>"It didn't seem to have occurred to Sir William Jones to ask whether the legal code, so reminiscent of the Code of Justinian, on the one hand, and the Five Books of Moses on the other, and thus familiar in concept, had recently, or indeed EVER, been applied by actual judges in India to real life. (Which was sort of the point of the exercise of digging it up and imposing it in the first place.)</p> <p>Apparently it hadn't. And some of the actual familiarity of its contents to traditionally educated Hindus was due, not to pious consultation of "Manu," but to big chunks of it appearing, in virtually identical form, in the Sanskrit epic "Mahabharata." (The literary relationship of these passages is still open to debate.) This is made clear by Doniger and Smith and by Olivelle; although both focus on the work as an example of, and influence, in, the Indian cultural tradition."</p> <p>Also, in response to a query of why non-dwija hindus would be proud of Hinduism.... as a non-dwija Hindu myself, I'll answer it with a quote from Wendy Doniger (who, while I don't always agree with her, is quite brilliant):</p> <p>"So I agree with a lot of Hindu mythology and theology, and I think Hinduism describes life better than any other religion. It has a vision of the universe that corresponds more closely to the universe I've glimpsed in my 68 years on this planet than other visions of the universe."</p> <p>Given that most Hindus (even us low casters, which you and your buddy Boston Mahesh, for some feel the need to speak on behalf of in blanket terms) know their "religion" from mythology, I'd have to agree. I bet both of you are actually brahmins on top of it.</p> “This is an absurd argument. Just because some Hindus are spiritual tourists or find more peace of mind in the sacred places of other religions than their own is no proof that those other religions are doctrinally similar to Hinduism.”

Are any of these actually “religions” in the first place? Having said that, given that the concepts of dharma, samsara, moksha, karma come from the early Upanishads (which are Vedic) which predate Buddhism and Jainism, then how do those religion not have similiar “doctrines”

Also, can you please show the historical sources that say 1) Manu Smriti was equal to Shariah and was the explicit law of the state in ancient India

“It didn’t seem to have occurred to Sir William Jones to ask whether the legal code, so reminiscent of the Code of Justinian, on the one hand, and the Five Books of Moses on the other, and thus familiar in concept, had recently, or indeed EVER, been applied by actual judges in India to real life. (Which was sort of the point of the exercise of digging it up and imposing it in the first place.)

Apparently it hadn’t. And some of the actual familiarity of its contents to traditionally educated Hindus was due, not to pious consultation of “Manu,” but to big chunks of it appearing, in virtually identical form, in the Sanskrit epic “Mahabharata.” (The literary relationship of these passages is still open to debate.) This is made clear by Doniger and Smith and by Olivelle; although both focus on the work as an example of, and influence, in, the Indian cultural tradition.”

Also, in response to a query of why non-dwija hindus would be proud of Hinduism…. as a non-dwija Hindu myself, I’ll answer it with a quote from Wendy Doniger (who, while I don’t always agree with her, is quite brilliant):

“So I agree with a lot of Hindu mythology and theology, and I think Hinduism describes life better than any other religion. It has a vision of the universe that corresponds more closely to the universe I’ve glimpsed in my 68 years on this planet than other visions of the universe.”

Given that most Hindus (even us low casters, which you and your buddy Boston Mahesh, for some feel the need to speak on behalf of in blanket terms) know their “religion” from mythology, I’d have to agree. I bet both of you are actually brahmins on top of it.

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By: boston_mahesh http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285850 boston_mahesh Sun, 31 Jul 2011 06:35:19 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285850 <p>The non-Hindus of South Asia should acknowledge their Hindu roots to the extent that Subramaniam Swamy should acknowledge his urine-drinking, human-sacrificing, and racist past.</p> The non-Hindus of South Asia should acknowledge their Hindu roots to the extent that Subramaniam Swamy should acknowledge his urine-drinking, human-sacrificing, and racist past.

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By: boston_mahesh http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285849 boston_mahesh Sun, 31 Jul 2011 06:32:06 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285849 <p><b>Varun Shekhar: Hindus attend, without any feeling of self-conciousness or apprehension, the temples/places of reverence of Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains.</b></p> <p>The Hindus of Sri Lanka don't attend the Buddhist temples of Sri Lanka (or vice-versa).</p> <p>Ditto for the Buddhists of Maharashtra.</p> <p>Ditto for the Tibetan refugees at Majnu Ka-Tilla: You will only see them at a Hindu temple incidentally, but they don't want to amalgamated with the Hindus.</p> <p>Sikhs are a very open community (unlike some other closed faiths) that welcome everyone - caste no bar. However, Sikhs don't go to Hindu temples that frequently, and if they did, it was incidentally (or maybe the langar menu didn't suit their tastes that day).</p> <p>People here on SM seem to be trying to believe that Sikhs are a type of Hindus, but let me tell you this - they are not. Nor are the Sikhs jumping up and down about their ancestor's fire rituals, and I know that they frown on that...as do Muslims...Jews...Christians...and Buddhists.</p> Varun Shekhar: Hindus attend, without any feeling of self-conciousness or apprehension, the temples/places of reverence of Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains.

The Hindus of Sri Lanka don’t attend the Buddhist temples of Sri Lanka (or vice-versa).

Ditto for the Buddhists of Maharashtra.

Ditto for the Tibetan refugees at Majnu Ka-Tilla: You will only see them at a Hindu temple incidentally, but they don’t want to amalgamated with the Hindus.

Sikhs are a very open community (unlike some other closed faiths) that welcome everyone – caste no bar. However, Sikhs don’t go to Hindu temples that frequently, and if they did, it was incidentally (or maybe the langar menu didn’t suit their tastes that day).

People here on SM seem to be trying to believe that Sikhs are a type of Hindus, but let me tell you this – they are not. Nor are the Sikhs jumping up and down about their ancestor’s fire rituals, and I know that they frown on that…as do Muslims…Jews…Christians…and Buddhists.

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By: nnn http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285848 nnn Sun, 31 Jul 2011 06:25:44 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285848 <p>From your reaction, I suspect you are a brahmin. If that guess is correct, get used to people like Prema (Gypsy). She is merely doing what Ambedkar and Dravida Kazhagam did: study the Vedas, the Ramayana etc. just enough to present the contradictions. The real behavior of people is different from what intellectuals claim it to be. For some reason, Dalits, OBCs etc. are still in Hinduism, even though they have a choice to leave it. Many Dalits are not choosing to follow Ambedkar into Buddhism. Why do they do it? Why is Hinduism still so attractive?</p> From your reaction, I suspect you are a brahmin. If that guess is correct, get used to people like Prema (Gypsy). She is merely doing what Ambedkar and Dravida Kazhagam did: study the Vedas, the Ramayana etc. just enough to present the contradictions. The real behavior of people is different from what intellectuals claim it to be. For some reason, Dalits, OBCs etc. are still in Hinduism, even though they have a choice to leave it. Many Dalits are not choosing to follow Ambedkar into Buddhism. Why do they do it? Why is Hinduism still so attractive?

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By: hypocrites_assasin http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285847 hypocrites_assasin Sun, 31 Jul 2011 05:30:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285847 <p>Gypsy/Prema: "So instead of asking non-hindus to be proud of their Hindu past shouldn't he be asking Hindus to be ashamed of their past and instead look forward to a better future?"</p> <p>All of humanity have unwholesome practices in the very distant past that they may in the 21st find distasteful. Only a hypocrite would single out ancient brahmanical rites. Other groups (in India even) have even more interesting customs. Do you know about them Gypsy. Did the university that gave you a PhD in brahmin hateology not require a a broad survey. Or is it that those other grunting cave dwellers don't merit censure being nothing better than animals.</p> <p>Swamy is not asking one to be proud of negative aspects of a very old and dynamic culture. Societies grow and evolve. Hindu society has and there is pride in that too (unlike people of the book who get stuck in a time and place and context).</p> Gypsy/Prema: “So instead of asking non-hindus to be proud of their Hindu past shouldn’t he be asking Hindus to be ashamed of their past and instead look forward to a better future?”

All of humanity have unwholesome practices in the very distant past that they may in the 21st find distasteful. Only a hypocrite would single out ancient brahmanical rites. Other groups (in India even) have even more interesting customs. Do you know about them Gypsy. Did the university that gave you a PhD in brahmin hateology not require a a broad survey. Or is it that those other grunting cave dwellers don’t merit censure being nothing better than animals.

Swamy is not asking one to be proud of negative aspects of a very old and dynamic culture. Societies grow and evolve. Hindu society has and there is pride in that too (unlike people of the book who get stuck in a time and place and context).

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By: Pravin Praveen http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285844 Pravin Praveen Sun, 31 Jul 2011 04:51:07 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285844 <p>Reading this thread, I am just glad I am agnostic.</p> Reading this thread, I am just glad I am agnostic.

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By: Gypsy http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/07/26/subramanian_swa/comment-page-2/#comment-285843 Gypsy Sun, 31 Jul 2011 04:39:51 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6608#comment-285843 <p>By the way it is funny that Swamy demands that non-hindus express pride in their Hindu past as a pre-requisite to Indian citizenship when even a prominent leader of the Hindutva movement is ashamed of a major component of that past:</p> <p>"The Vishva Hindu Parishad totally rejects the "Manu Smriti" as it has no place in a civilized society." (Ashok Singhal, President of VHP)</p> <p>The Manu Smriti was the Hindu equivalent of Sharia.</p> <p>Hindus should also be ashamed of the Vedic animal and human sacrifices, as anyone in his right mind would be. The Vedic Ashvamedha, or horse sacrifice, involved not just the killing of the horse but also the simulated copulation with it's dead body by the Queen! A human sacrifice, Purushamedha, followed a similar format. The horse sacrifice figures in both the Ramayana and Mahabharata as well:</p> <p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha</p> <p>Any rational person would have to agree with the atheist Carvaka school's judgement on this nonsense:</p> <p>"The three authors of the Vedas were buffoons, knaves and demons. All the well known formulas of the pandits, jarphari, turphari etc and all the obscene rites for the Queen commanded in the Aswamedha were invented by buffoons" :)</p> <p>So instead of asking non-hindus to be proud of their Hindu past shouldn't he be asking Hindus to be ashamed of their past and instead look forward to a better future?</p> By the way it is funny that Swamy demands that non-hindus express pride in their Hindu past as a pre-requisite to Indian citizenship when even a prominent leader of the Hindutva movement is ashamed of a major component of that past:

“The Vishva Hindu Parishad totally rejects the “Manu Smriti” as it has no place in a civilized society.” (Ashok Singhal, President of VHP)

The Manu Smriti was the Hindu equivalent of Sharia.

Hindus should also be ashamed of the Vedic animal and human sacrifices, as anyone in his right mind would be. The Vedic Ashvamedha, or horse sacrifice, involved not just the killing of the horse but also the simulated copulation with it’s dead body by the Queen! A human sacrifice, Purushamedha, followed a similar format. The horse sacrifice figures in both the Ramayana and Mahabharata as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

Any rational person would have to agree with the atheist Carvaka school’s judgement on this nonsense:

“The three authors of the Vedas were buffoons, knaves and demons. All the well known formulas of the pandits, jarphari, turphari etc and all the obscene rites for the Queen commanded in the Aswamedha were invented by buffoons” :)

So instead of asking non-hindus to be proud of their Hindu past shouldn’t he be asking Hindus to be ashamed of their past and instead look forward to a better future?

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