no. if you care, get a bunch of ‘em genotyped: https://www.23andme.com (i got my whole family and a bunch of friends genotyped on my own dime).

the term is caucasoid caucasian is a different term.

Now, that being said, your information also corroborates with another factoid that I knew, that I believe Cavalli-Sforza touched upon: That ~67% of European’s genetics are from the Middle East. Now, this makes sense to me. Of course, he seems to believe that their Middle Eastern genetic contribution occurred sometimes after 10,000 YA.

i think he’s correct. you need to “update” your model of he world where the ice patterns had a long term effect. i think europe was probably “replaced” by middle eastern/central eurasian populations several times. think of what happened to the australian aboriginals or bushmen in south africa. as for india, the “ANI” was probably intrusive to the subcontinent. or the “ASI” are. the two groups are genetically VERY different. since the ASI don’t resemble anyone else closely (the connection to the andaman islanders is probably somewhat more distant than that between amerindians and east asians), and the ANI are basically another generic west eurasian group, the most likely scenario is that ANI represents a “back migration” of west eurasians who may originally have been from the fringes of south asia.

I’m very sure that this would shed more appreciation for our pedigree, but at the same time, it would, perhaps, help to destabilize certain loose nations with very differing genotypes.

most people are ignorant, so i doubt it’ll matter.

I usually use “honky” for someone of Northern European, white ancestry, and who manifests xenophobia; and I use Caucasian as a more inclusive demarcator to include N. Africans, Middle Easterns, and even Orissans (adapted from Cavalli-Sforza’s population map).

Razib Khan: second, the more correct model is that everyone outside of africa excluding some people in the middle east may have south asian origins ~50,000 years ago. that’s because south asia was probably the most congenial area for african humans outside of africa (much of the middle east was really dry). in fact it is almost certainly true that all east eurasians, oceanians, and amerindians, have a south asian root at that stage. it is a little more confused for the west eurasian populations. they may have a more middle eastern root population, which was a sister group to the south asian humans.”

This is amazing! This is what I was referring to. I am so surprised about this. But when I ponder a little more deeply into this, I never thought too deeply about this to begin with. You see, I’ve seen many maps showing when, where, and the migratory route of our ancestors. What was very remarkable was that humans migrated out of Africa 60,000 years ago, and almost instantly, they made it all the way to Australia. Perhaps they drove hybrid vehicles, but I forgot that wheels were only invented around 6,000 YA. These humans “hugged” the coastlines on their way to Australia. So, I would think that they hung out there for millenia, and then wandered to elsewhere.

Now, that being said, your information also corroborates with another factoid that I knew, that I believe Cavalli-Sforza touched upon: That ~67% of European’s genetics are from the Middle East. Now, this makes sense to me. Of course, he seems to believe that their Middle Eastern genetic contribution occurred sometimes after 10,000 YA.

Boston_Mahesh: This is my question: Could we prove using genetics, that a migration occurred from south India into the North? I would think that in order to do so, we must identify a gene, gene sequence that’s expressed very highly amongst South Indians, and measure the frequency of this gene/gene_sequence for other groups.

Razib Khan: yes, genetics and suggest this. the real proof though would have to be extractions from ancient DNA. i think north india is dry and cool enough that we’ll get some, especially from older indus societies where human remains were buried underneath the house. i am kind of skeptical about the feasibility in south india, but who knows? perhaps something from the deccan?

Very good! You know, RK, one thing that I’d love to see in the future is a very robust, scientific way to elucidate our past, and these genetic techniques seem to be an amazingly powerful tool to discern our genetic origins/migratory path, etc. We already are at a Golden Age of all this, I believe, now that sequencing is relatively inexpensive. I’m very sure that this would shed more appreciation for our pedigree, but at the same time, it would, perhaps, help to destabilize certain loose nations with very differing genotypes.

first, can we stop using the word caucasian? it’s confusing.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/01/stop-using-the-word-caucasian-to-mean-white/

second, the more correct model is that everyone outside of africa excluding some people in the middle east may have south asian origins ~50,000 years ago. that’s because south asia was probably the most congenial area for african humans outside of africa (much of the middle east was really dry). in fact it is almost certainly true that all east eurasians, oceanians, and amerindians, have a south asian root at that stage. it is a little more confused for the west eurasian populations. they may have a more middle eastern root population, which was a sister group to the south asian humans.

This is my question: Could we prove using genetics, that a migration occurred from south India into the North? I would think that in order to do so, we must identify a gene, gene sequence that’s expressed very highly amongst South Indians, and measure the frequency of this gene/gene_sequence for other groups.

yes, genetics and suggest this. the real proof though would have to be extractions from ancient DNA. i think north india is dry and cool enough that we’ll get some, especially from older indus societies where human remains were buried underneath the house. i am kind of skeptical about the feasibility in south india, but who knows? perhaps something from the deccan?

This is my question: Could we prove using genetics, that a migration occurred from south India into the North? I would think that in order to do so, we must identify a gene, gene sequence that’s expressed very highly amongst South Indians, and measure the frequency of this gene/gene_sequence for other groups.

they found some markers in bali a few years back. i think it depends on the region. it seems more likely in maritime southeast asia. less likely in continental areas.

Question: Is Onge a proxy for the “ASI” and is the SouthWestern Asian and/or European gene a proxy for “ANI”?

well, onge is correlated with ASI, but it is not a substitute. the fraction of onge is lower than ASI. and “ANI” tracks s asian, sw asian, and european. it’s more complicated.

It seems like the Onge component pretty much defines desiness. It is non-existent to vanishingly small in persians and other west asians and europeans.while it ranges from ~15% in punjabis of the peasant caste (jatts) to 25% in tamil brahmins and 35% in the vishvakarma “forward” caste and tribals of south and central india.

The total absence of the Onge component in the Kalash sets them apart from desis. So much for the Harappa Project’s Kalash component……

1) the onge underestimates ASI

2) the onge is not a perfect proxy since they’re genetically somewhat distant. look at the non-trivial fractions across southeast asia in the reference runs

3) the kalash have ASI, albeit low levels, because onge tends to underestimate ASI

see the supplements of reich. et al

And where does that leave the south asian component which is the largest one in desis and declines as you exit the subcontinent? The southwest asian and european components are a fraction of the south asian component among desis. Desis are overwhelmingly Onge + South Asian.

It seems like the Onge component pretty much defines desiness. It is non-existent to vanishingly small in persians and other west asians and europeans.while it ranges from ~15% in punjabis of the peasant caste (jatts) to 25% in tamil brahmins and 35% in the vishvakarma “forward” caste and tribals of south and central india.

The total absence of the Onge component in the Kalash sets them apart from desis. So much for the Harappa Project’s Kalash component……

I love this data. Thanks for putting this all together! I have a basic question. On one hand, we have: “The South Indian adivasi is 30-40% ANI, and 70-60% ASI. The Pathan is 80% ANI and 20% ASI. Most people in South Asia span the gamut.”

Question: Is Onge a proxy for the “ASI” and is the SouthWestern Asian and/or European gene a proxy for “ANI”?

Also, I’m amazed that some one of your jatt samples is basically identical to a Pashtun sample. Intuitively, I can see that the people some times bear a striking resemblance, and they’re cultural and behavioral attributes are very similar and specific. They both tend to treat guest really well, very patriarchal, loyal, same or similar phyisque, same type of hair growth, etc.

Pathan: 48 S Asian; 11 Onge; 1 E Asian; 16 SW ASian; 17 European; 5 East Eurasian.
Punjabi Jatt: 49 S Asian; 13 Onge; 1 E Asian; 13 SW Asian; 20 European; 3 East Eurasian.

NOTE: Numbers won’t necessarily round to 100%.

Also, I can’t help but think to myself that when the proto-Indo-Iranian language started to diverge, that the Iranian-speaking Pashtuns and the Indo-Aryan speaking Jatt homeland is where this divergence took place. Moreover, their liturgical interpretations must have diverged at this time as well. It’s remarkable how Indo-Europeans first emerged in Iran around 1000 BC from the EAST (not West or Caucaus mountains), and also at about this time, Zoraster lived. Currently, linguists seem to think that this divergence took place in Central Asia around 2000 BC, I think.

I think that the proto-Jatts and proto-Pashtuns eventually developed the proto-Sanskrit and proto-Iranian languages. Given that they are both culturally domineering and pugnacious, they spread these new views and methods.