Comments on: Osama & me & we http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Razib Khan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283746 Razib Khan Thu, 05 May 2011 20:48:09 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283746 <p>though u did give me a post idea. i guess some of the quantitative data and interaction factors are still not totally familiar.</p> though u did give me a post idea. i guess some of the quantitative data and interaction factors are still not totally familiar.

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By: Razib Khan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283745 Razib Khan Thu, 05 May 2011 20:36:57 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283745 <p><a href="http://sda.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/hsda?harcsda+nes08new">2008 ANES Time Series</a>. lots of data. please post some cross-tabs in this argument from there. the repetition of verbal talking points is pointless. e.g., an assertion like this:</p> <p><i>It is less about economic class and more and more about race and ethnicity in American politics. And about religion.</i></p> <p>is pointless without a beta. but even then you need to take into account that race and ethnicity are categorical, while economic class is more straightforwardly converted into quantitative metrics.</p> <p>i expect follow up comments to utilize the simple ANES interface data. if not, keep your mouth shut. if i want to read an argument between franks vs. bartels/gelman, i'll read them. they do a better job than you lot.</p> 2008 ANES Time Series. lots of data. please post some cross-tabs in this argument from there. the repetition of verbal talking points is pointless. e.g., an assertion like this:

It is less about economic class and more and more about race and ethnicity in American politics. And about religion.

is pointless without a beta. but even then you need to take into account that race and ethnicity are categorical, while economic class is more straightforwardly converted into quantitative metrics.

i expect follow up comments to utilize the simple ANES interface data. if not, keep your mouth shut. if i want to read an argument between franks vs. bartels/gelman, i’ll read them. they do a better job than you lot.

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By: Vivek http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283744 Vivek Thu, 05 May 2011 20:12:57 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283744 <blockquote>But silicon valley and elite school graduates are generally white. I have no idea how their vote breaksdown</blockquote> <p>The intellectual elite: silicon valley, professors and students at the elite schools, Nobel laureates, scientists and engineers overwhelmingly vote Democrat. These elite are much less white anglo and much, much less evangelical christian than the rank and file of the Republican Party. A disproportional number are jews and asians. The lily white anglo Tea Party base of the Republicans is seen by such self-made meritocratic elites as racists, retards, losers and crackpots.</p> But silicon valley and elite school graduates are generally white. I have no idea how their vote breaksdown

The intellectual elite: silicon valley, professors and students at the elite schools, Nobel laureates, scientists and engineers overwhelmingly vote Democrat. These elite are much less white anglo and much, much less evangelical christian than the rank and file of the Republican Party. A disproportional number are jews and asians. The lily white anglo Tea Party base of the Republicans is seen by such self-made meritocratic elites as racists, retards, losers and crackpots.

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283742 Manju Thu, 05 May 2011 18:52:54 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283742 <blockquote>What economic class do Jews, Silicon Valley and the alumni of the elite schools represent???</blockquote> <p>Upper. So jews i would susbstatiate your thesis i'm sure</p> <p>But silicon valley and elite school graduates are generally white. I have no idea how their vote breaksdown but assumng they lean dem why would race, ethnicity, and religion be the salient factor?</p> <p>The data from andrew gelman (that krugman references) shows that (outside the south) the correlation between the rich and republicans is weak, but it is there. I'm going on memory but I think gelman concludes that the salient factor is being socially liberal.</p> <p>So, ironically, it is the upper classes in the north that are most likely to vote on social values (abortion, etc) not the working clases as has been assumed by dems (thomas frank). perhaps silicon valley and ivy leagers fall in that category.</p> <p>or perhaps they see the dems in their economic interest (clean energy subisides for silicon valley). goldman sachs gives more money to dems.</p> What economic class do Jews, Silicon Valley and the alumni of the elite schools represent???

Upper. So jews i would susbstatiate your thesis i’m sure

But silicon valley and elite school graduates are generally white. I have no idea how their vote breaksdown but assumng they lean dem why would race, ethnicity, and religion be the salient factor?

The data from andrew gelman (that krugman references) shows that (outside the south) the correlation between the rich and republicans is weak, but it is there. I’m going on memory but I think gelman concludes that the salient factor is being socially liberal.

So, ironically, it is the upper classes in the north that are most likely to vote on social values (abortion, etc) not the working clases as has been assumed by dems (thomas frank). perhaps silicon valley and ivy leagers fall in that category.

or perhaps they see the dems in their economic interest (clean energy subisides for silicon valley). goldman sachs gives more money to dems.

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By: Vivek http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283741 Vivek Thu, 05 May 2011 17:33:05 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283741 <blockquote>you don’t’ make the case. For #1 and #3 you didn’t control for class. I’m not sure why # 4 is relevant.</blockquote> <p>What economic class do Jews, Silicon Valley and the alumni of the elite schools represent???</p> you don’t’ make the case. For #1 and #3 you didn’t control for class. I’m not sure why # 4 is relevant.

What economic class do Jews, Silicon Valley and the alumni of the elite schools represent???

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283739 Manju Thu, 05 May 2011 13:27:49 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283739 <p>re #6 again, To be fair, there was a Dixiecrat run in 68, but I doubt there are many who voted for a segregationist who would’ve voted for Humphrey. But Clinton totals are likely diminished in his first run b/c of Ross Perot. Conventional wisdom has it that Bush lost more to Perot. Since Clinton got 44 in his 2nd run during hugely prosperous times, I think 43 sounds like a good number if we erase Perot.</p> <p>But at the end of the Day, no democrat since the fall of Jim Crow has gotten more than 50% of the white vote. So I don’t see how Obama failing to get there means too much.</p> re #6 again, To be fair, there was a Dixiecrat run in 68, but I doubt there are many who voted for a segregationist who would’ve voted for Humphrey. But Clinton totals are likely diminished in his first run b/c of Ross Perot. Conventional wisdom has it that Bush lost more to Perot. Since Clinton got 44 in his 2nd run during hugely prosperous times, I think 43 sounds like a good number if we erase Perot.

But at the end of the Day, no democrat since the fall of Jim Crow has gotten more than 50% of the white vote. So I don’t see how Obama failing to get there means too much.

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283738 Manju Thu, 05 May 2011 13:26:51 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283738 <p>numbers:</p> <p>http://www.slate.com/id/2204251/sidebar/2204308/</p> numbers:

http://www.slate.com/id/2204251/sidebar/2204308/

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283737 Manju Thu, 05 May 2011 13:26:01 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283737 <p>Re #6. “Whites were the only major group that voted heavily against Obama, and if you exclude ethnic whites and off-whites, Obama probably lost by a landslide among lily-white white Anglos.”</p> <p>This is also not controlled for class and also deceptive without controlling for Party. You have to compare Obama to other Democrats.</p> <p>Starting from 68…to give us space from Jim Crow, which artificially and dramatically inflates white vote totals for Dems, Obama has beaten every democrat who ran for office, though the 2 southerners beat him in 2 of their 4 races.</p> <p>Humphrey: 38 McGovern: 31 Carter: 48 Carter: 36 Mondale: 34 Dukakis 40 Clinton : 39 Clinton : 44 Gore: 42 Kerry : 41</p> <p>Obama got 43, leaving only Clinton and Carter in 2 of their 4 races who can claim to have bettered him among whites. Carter dominated the south and was endorsed by virtually every segregationist who filibustered the 64cra. So that skews his numbers. Clinton was able to pluck off many southern states due some clever southern strategizing.</p> Re #6. “Whites were the only major group that voted heavily against Obama, and if you exclude ethnic whites and off-whites, Obama probably lost by a landslide among lily-white white Anglos.”

This is also not controlled for class and also deceptive without controlling for Party. You have to compare Obama to other Democrats.

Starting from 68…to give us space from Jim Crow, which artificially and dramatically inflates white vote totals for Dems, Obama has beaten every democrat who ran for office, though the 2 southerners beat him in 2 of their 4 races.

Humphrey: 38 McGovern: 31 Carter: 48 Carter: 36 Mondale: 34 Dukakis 40 Clinton : 39 Clinton : 44 Gore: 42 Kerry : 41

Obama got 43, leaving only Clinton and Carter in 2 of their 4 races who can claim to have bettered him among whites. Carter dominated the south and was endorsed by virtually every segregationist who filibustered the 64cra. So that skews his numbers. Clinton was able to pluck off many southern states due some clever southern strategizing.

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283736 Manju Thu, 05 May 2011 13:17:01 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283736 <p>Viviek, you don’t’ make the case. For #1 and #3 you didn’t control for class. I’m not sure why # 4 is relevant.</p> <h1>2 is but it sounds like an outlier, and could be attributable to Obama subsidizing silicon valley via cleantech grants and more money for biotech companies. At the end of the day, here is Krugman on the subject (reference the massive data crunching of Larry Bartels):</h1> <blockquote>“Contrary to what you may have read, the old-fashioned notion that rich people vote Republican, while poorer people vote Democratic, is as true as ever – in fact, more true than it was a generation ago.”</blockquote> <p>Regarding #5: “The Republican Red States are poorer, less educated and more fundamentalist christian than the liberal Blue States." Here is Krugman summarizing Bartels again:</p> <blockquote>In fact, if you look at voting behavior, low-income whites in the South are not very different from low-income whites in the rest of the country. You can see this both in Larry Bartels’s “What’s the matter with What’s the Matter With Kansas?” (pdf), Figure 3, and in a comprehensive study of red state-blue state differences by Gelman et al (pdf).</blockquote> <p>This is an interesting nuance. The difference between the south and the rest of the country (post Jim Crow, of course) are their affluent voters, who vote overwhelmingly republican. In contrast, nono-southern affluent voters just lean repub. Democrats have for years focused on the working class due to their “whats the matter with Kansas” belief that poor whites are convinced to vote repub due to racism and other social issues, but ironically the real issue is rich southern whites.</p> Viviek, you don’t’ make the case. For #1 and #3 you didn’t control for class. I’m not sure why # 4 is relevant.

2 is but it sounds like an outlier, and could be attributable to Obama subsidizing silicon valley via cleantech grants and more money for biotech companies. At the end of the day, here is Krugman on the subject (reference the massive data crunching of Larry Bartels):

“Contrary to what you may have read, the old-fashioned notion that rich people vote Republican, while poorer people vote Democratic, is as true as ever – in fact, more true than it was a generation ago.”

Regarding #5: “The Republican Red States are poorer, less educated and more fundamentalist christian than the liberal Blue States.” Here is Krugman summarizing Bartels again:

In fact, if you look at voting behavior, low-income whites in the South are not very different from low-income whites in the rest of the country. You can see this both in Larry Bartels’s “What’s the matter with What’s the Matter With Kansas?” (pdf), Figure 3, and in a comprehensive study of red state-blue state differences by Gelman et al (pdf).

This is an interesting nuance. The difference between the south and the rest of the country (post Jim Crow, of course) are their affluent voters, who vote overwhelmingly republican. In contrast, nono-southern affluent voters just lean repub. Democrats have for years focused on the working class due to their “whats the matter with Kansas” belief that poor whites are convinced to vote repub due to racism and other social issues, but ironically the real issue is rich southern whites.

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By: Vivek http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2011/05/04/osama_me_we/comment-page-1/#comment-283735 Vivek Thu, 05 May 2011 11:45:38 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=6529#comment-283735 <blockquote>most South Asians tend not to be blue collar workers in manufacturing industries and be part of the "have a beer with us, President" crowd.</blockquote> <p>It is less about economic class and more and more about race and ethnicity in American politics. And about religion.</p> <ol> <li><p>Jews, the wealthiest and most successful ethnicity in the US, voted for Obama by a landslide.</p></li> <li><p>Silicon Valley voted by a landslide for Obama.</p></li> <li><p>Asians voted for Obama by a landslide.</p></li> <li><p>Republicans are a small minority in the best colleges and universities.</p></li> <li><p>The Republican Red States are poorer, less educated and more fundamentalist christian than the liberal Blue States.</p></li> <li><p>Whites were the only major group that voted heavily against Obama, and if you exclude ethnic whites and off-whites, Obama probably lost by a landslide among lily-white white Anglos.</p></li> </ol> most South Asians tend not to be blue collar workers in manufacturing industries and be part of the “have a beer with us, President” crowd.

It is less about economic class and more and more about race and ethnicity in American politics. And about religion.

  1. Jews, the wealthiest and most successful ethnicity in the US, voted for Obama by a landslide.

  2. Silicon Valley voted by a landslide for Obama.

  3. Asians voted for Obama by a landslide.

  4. Republicans are a small minority in the best colleges and universities.

  5. The Republican Red States are poorer, less educated and more fundamentalist christian than the liberal Blue States.

  6. Whites were the only major group that voted heavily against Obama, and if you exclude ethnic whites and off-whites, Obama probably lost by a landslide among lily-white white Anglos.

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