this is very interesting. sex segregation is quite fierce in south india, in tamil nadu. as someone said above no hugging or even touching is indulged in, even among loved ones. no sharing of food, water, exchange of saliva. very few colleges and schools are co-ed. but this has not lead to tolerance nor prevalence of same sex activity among the people.

this also goes against the fact/belief that homosexuality is natal condition, not acquired or by choice although one can be bi-sexual.

if this view in the muslim world is indeed true then women should be safe from assault in these societies. even sex work may be absent since no females are required for sex, only for marriage and procreation.

somehow all this does not add up.

I think it’s gone both ways… there are always going to be immigrants who leave their countries and try to recreate the exact same environment in the new country (except of course it’s skewed by their memories and perspectives), so some South Asian immigrants are probably stricter than their counterparts in the subcontinent. This phenomenon can kind of be applied to language as well: my parents taught me to speak Tamil the way they spoke it when they left India to come to America…now when I speak Tamil I sound like a 30-year-old from 1980 because while Tamil in India evolved as a language with the changing needs of its community, my family’s Tamil stayed the same.

Also, many parents in the US have accepted that their kids will be Americanized, and they’re ready to work out some kind of compromise between two different cultures. I think this is more evident in the US than the UK just because when many US families moved here, they were the only SAsians in their communities. My mother has mentioned to me that she is glad I’m slightly overweight and bookish, because if I were more attractive and socially active, she might have to deal with boyfriends, etc and she doesn’t know how she feels about me having a boyfriend. I’m never really sure how to feel about that statement though (LOL).

Fist bump for your atheism, and fist bump to Veena. I cannot believe the Mufti went off on her like that, and the yelling fest was a little off-putting. As a non-religious type growing up in an observant family, I am happy to say my parents walked the talk when it came to (what I was taught as) Islamic values. They did not judge others (good Muslims don’t judge), and (similar to Veena’s point) always paid more attention to the deeper injustices in society as opposed to what entertainers and women chose to wear. I stand up for my hijabis as well as my shoestring-bikini friends – power to ya ladies!

But, just a clear up on the term “jahiliyah:” no way is any reference to it an endorsement of Islamic fundamentalism, Al Qaeda or Sayyid Qutb. For one, he didn’t popularize it’s current usage. It has been part of the Muslim narrative and dialogue since its inception. It’s in the Quran, and referred to time and time again as a period of ignorance in Makkah marked by unchecked capitalism, stripping of rights of women and orphans, and female infanticide. Was there reason before Islam? Of course! Those who use “jahiliyah” as a term do not endorse the idea that reason does not exist outside of Islam, puhlease. “Jahiliyah” is just the term referring to the moral vacuum in a particular place at a particular time. Being a “jahil” has been an insult in the subcontinent, akin to “haramzadeh.” And among Muslims, the term has been used in literature and colloquially to refer to acts of ignorance/violence/incivility. That’s all, my two cents as a Bangle.

oh god, I just woke up so I read this as “have we met in prison”, then I started making all these assumptions about why you would be there. Hah, but no I haven’t been to NYC since I was… six years old. To be honest, I do not identify as Hindu ~per se since I gave up trying to understand it in my late teens, but I do agree with some principles, not karma but ahimsa, among others as well, I guess one would call it watered down Buddhism? I don’t care really for the metaphysical noise. Also, I wasn’t trying to imply that most Hindus were atheists, I was just describing the views of the very few Hindus who I know.

” to be fair some of the shift toward ‘sexual conservatism’ may be a function of lower caste/class people asserting their dignity and the sacrosanct nature of the sexuality of their womenfolk in the face of historical depredations. in the west the petite bourgeois are often the most socially conservative.”

I’ve been thinking this for so long. For example, not pertaining to female sexuality but gender expectations, in the US, women who have more education (master’s and above) have more children than those with bachelors/high school diploma, and are more likely to fulfill gender roles ie be stay at home moms (this is particularly true for those who attend Ivy Leagues) It seems counter intuitive, but I suppose people with that privilege just need to spend money on something.

“A questionable assertion for anyone who has been to South Delhi (or any of the major metros for that matter). Satellite TV and pop culture has certainly changed attitudes in cities and towns as well. Even pre-liberalization there certainly were discussions and, shall we say, escapades, but they tended to take place behind closed doors. As for ABD’s, it probably varies from family to family.”

Is it safe to conclude that Indians in the US have more conservative views regarding sexuality than people in India?

A questionable assertion for anyone who has been to South Delhi (or any of the major metros for that matter). Satellite TV and pop culture has certainly changed attitudes in cities and towns as well. Even pre-liberalization there certainly were discussions and, shall we say, escapades, but they tended to take place behind closed doors. As for ABD’s, it probably varies from family to family. I think discretion then as in now, was a value. Perhaps a more appropriate characterization would be that traditional society emphasized certain morays while witnessing a range of conduct. Even the straitlaced victorians recognized the need for a gentleman to convey “the facts of life to his ward”…

“And I admit I’m one of those people who has only ogled the book, never read it! “

Heh, with respect to a response here, I think discretion is the better part of valor–so I will have to say: “No comment”.

muslim women in kerala used to go topless until the early 20th century. islamic reformists from yemen were instrumental in convincing them to cover up. part of the issue was also the power imbalance between the hindu landlords and muslim peasants, many of whom were recent low caste converts from hinduism. male hindu landlords seem to have perceived it to be one of their liberties to view the nakedness of lower status females, and from what i could tell implicitly, sexual exploit them.

to be fair some of the shift toward ‘sexual conservatism’ may be a function of lower caste/class people asserting their dignity and the sacrosanct nature of the sexuality of their womenfolk in the face of historical depredations. in the west the petite bourgeois are often the most socially conservative.

Regardless, I think the fact that the Kama Sutra even exists is proof that our ancestors were more open to discussing sexual/marital matters than many modern day desi’s are. I’ve never been to India, but in my experience in Pakistan, sex is still quite a taboo subject there; and I mean any mention of sex, marital or otherwise. I notice here in America, some Desi’s stiffen up and become uncomfortable at even the mere mention of the Kama Sutra, just from hearing the name, because it is on the few romantic things openly associated with our culture in the West. I don’t think it’s fair to blame it on the Victorian Brits entirely; also the influence of Islam from the Mideast contributed to it, as well as other factors I’m sure.

And I admit I’m one of those people who has only ogled the book, never read it!

More importantly, irrespective of one’s viewpoints, the argument that provocative dressing or the decision to date somehow gives clearance to toss aside the all bounds of male decency should be deconstructed and rubbished once and for all. Since “mardangi” is often tacitly intimated to as one of the bases for reprehensible and criminal behavior by men against women, perhaps a campaign of sorts is needed–especially in Delhi–by bollywood actors such as Akshay Kumar to emphasis what makes a real man. Not sure if there has been significant outreach on this ( I think I remember seeing one with Aamir Khan about treatment of foreigners) but there certainly should be.

A couple of quick points though:

“(though i would argue carvaka is not hindu because it is materialist, not just atheist).”

Actually, that argument doesn’t hold water. Kautilya–a noted practitioner of carvaka-lokayata (carvaka is the name of the sage most associated with it)–is considered a proponent as well due to his ruthlessly pragmatic views on statecraft and aversion to astrology and soothsayers. He himself salutes Brihaspati (preceptor of Indra and devas) who is considered the originator of lokayata as well as the science of statecraft. It very much is a hindu tradition, albeit, a more heterodox one given that it is a nastika school.

Additionally, it is reductivist to somehow construct a vision of a libertine ancient hindu india on account of the kama sutra and that modern morality is essentially a victorian imposition. For starters, anyone who has read (rather than ogled) the kama sutra knows that the manual on the art of love making only consists of one section. In fact, the entire purpose of the book is to instruct young men on attracting and keeping an eligible wife so that he can pursue the four aims of life (of which kama is one). There were certainly a range of views with traditional society functioning alongside the existence of public courtesans or being reacted to by various schools, such as the left handed tantric ones. Perhaps the best way to understand what was likely the predominant view at the time was that the erotic was something to be appreciated by both genders–but in the proper context (read: marriage) and for a proper stage in life–in contrast to victorian and medieval church doctrine which emphasized shame. Vatsyayana (author of the kamasutra) certainly indicates as much, though he exhaustively describes virtually all behaviors–however frowned upon or condemnable–in a dispassionate manner, while emphasizing the path of Dharma. It is for that reason that Sita and Savitri (and Rama for that matter–yes ladies–it should apply both ways), are so celebrated in the hindu mythos. It is Sita and Rama, not Pururavas and Urvashi, who are considered the paragons in this regard. Kalidasa is considered the most celebrated poet on Shringara (or romantic/erotic love), and his dramas primarily celebrate the romances of married lovers (Shakuntala, Meghadoota, etc).

The Kama Shastra (note the difference here) itself was thought to originate from Nandi, who as the attendant of Lord Shiva and Parvati is said to have devised a treatise having listened in from behind closed doors (interesting yet disconcerting at the same time).

I think the reasoning may be that from a young age, women are held to higher “moral” standards and expected to conform to a narrower range of acceptable behaviors than men are – true in almost every society but especially in Asian ones, I think.

We also shouldn’t forget that much of “south asian values” are actually Victorian values imposed by imperialism. I can’t remember what the name was, but I remember reading a short story from the Victorian era; basically, 19th and 20th century western Europe was shocked at the sexual freedom in the Arab world, and a popular stereotype was the loose ‘oriental’ (referring to Mideastern/Indian) woman.

Yeah it’s funny how a nation that came up with the Kama Sutra can be so bashful about a bollywood kiss here and there!

1) have we met in person? in new york city? i had a long conversation with a syrian christian who identifies as hindu at an SM meet up in 2008. his wife is hindu. i know of people who were raised muslim or christian who have buddhist or hindu or new age religious beliefs.

2) no, i have never considered becoming hindu. atheistic buddhism appeals to me in some ways as an ethical system. at the end of day the religio-philosophical system which i’m more inclined toward is that of confucianism, in particular the realist strain of xunzi. i am not a believer in supernaturalism, and am not part of a south asian community (i’m an exogamist ), so i don’t see the point in me identifying as hindu. i reject karma as a metaphysical principle. also, most american hindus are not atheists fyi. see pew religious landscape survey. most indian hindus are not atheist either, look the the world values survey though hindus are obviously tolerant of atheism since some hindu philosophical schools have that orientation (though i would argue carvaka is not hindu because it is materialist, not just atheist).

Obviously the effects of this sentiment are detrimental, but perhaps the reasoning behind it is because of women primarily raise children and must infuse ‘morals’ into them and are less likely to engage in risky behavior (as evidenced by longer life spans). We also shouldn’t forget that much of “south asian values” are actually Victorian values imposed by imperialism. I can’t remember what the name was, but I remember reading a short story from the Victorian era; basically, 19th and 20th century western Europe was shocked at the sexual freedom in the Arab world, and a popular stereotype was the loose ‘oriental’ (referring to Mideastern/Indian) woman.

this is complicated. please note that because of sex segregation in the muslim world homosexual activity has often been tolerated among young men so long as people were discrete. this prompted a large ‘sex tourist’ fad among wealthy gay european men in the 19th century. this still happens today, i have gay friends who go to places like morocco where the practice continues because there isn’t as much hostility to westerners. also, many of the more regressive attitudes to women were always present among elites in the islamic world and in south asia. the spread of practices like purdah occurred via the emulation of elites by the middle classes. among peasants and lower class groups women need to work to help support the family, so are given a measure of de facto freedom (you see this in saudi arabia, where rural women drive cars illegally to work, especially in the hijaz). in this way development may actually generate an interlude of bourgeois conservatism. finally, a lot of the travel literature from that period is weird, and i’m not sure whether to believe it. e.g., stuff like how sexually aggressive sephardic jewesses in morocco were sound more like penthouse forum than realistic description.