Sadly, your comments don’t astound me.

I’d rather be ugly than prejudice any day. Good luck with that.

Disadvantaged groups being great musicians or athletes is actually quite common. For example, notice how just about every American genre but folk and bluegrass were pioneered by Blacks. Blues, jazz, rock and roll, hip-hop and so on.

I only felt the need to explain that South Asians are not all the same and neither can they be stereotyped as brown. Being Muslim attending a multicultural masjid, Arabs in my community can either be white or Black. Being an Arab has nothing to do with belonging to the same race, it is based on a shared mother tongue. Sudanese Arabs in San Diego are Black while their Egyptian counterparts in Alexandria are white. South Asians need to understand that Islam led to cultural hybridity and interracial marriages. That may explain the success of Islam, the religion is not rooted in geography or only resonates with people of a certain lineage. For Muslim peoples in Mmaririme Southeast Asia, the Ramayana by Valmiki is still performed. The Brahmanic-Buddhist heritage of India left an indelible mark on the Afghan/Pushtun peoples. But we are indebted to Hellenization and Iran in shaping our culture as well. Opium wad brought to Afghanistan by way of the Greek armies invading Asia (what is now Pakistan).

Islam brought aspects of Arab culture to us, but we are a unique group of South Asians. In Pakistan’s quest to differentiate itself from Hindu India, Pakistanis have “romaticized” Pushtun culture and you see this in Lollywood and Pakistani television programming.

I don’t consider myself brown, I identify with my ethnicity and language. Skin color is not something Afghans obsess about, though whiteness is pursued in the West and is the standard of beauty. Even though Hazara are at times the subject of prejudice, their ethnic group produce some of Afghanistan’s greatest musicians.

Mustafa, I agree with you my Persian brother.

Nice to see diversity on SM.

Mustafa, I agree with you my Persian brother.

Nice to see diversity on SM.

Really? I beg to differ. Are you serious?

Both of those cultures have been distilled into nice little packs of commercially sellability:

Italian culture = Mafia, Jersey Shore, Eating lots of food, having big families Irish culture = lucky charms, st. patricks day, shamrocks, and drinking.”

Yes I’m serious. And I have never heard an Irish person discuss their culture in terms of “lucky charms”. I won’t use Italians as an example since there I didn’t grow up with any Italian families, but there are TONS (and I mean tons) of Irish families in the area I grew up.

I will throw out a few (real none stereotypic commercial) examples of maintaining culture for you:

irish step dancing: (my best friend competed in this, it remains a rather popular culture dance for Irish Americans to teach their children) http://www.kearneypublishing.com/images/textimages/080207ca22.jpg

Catholicism: many Irish Americans in my area are Catholic and their religion is strongly rooted in their culture.

Have you heard of the Claddagh? Wiki says: “The Claddagh ring (Irish: fáinne Chladaigh) is a traditional Irish ring given as a token of love or worn as a wedding ring. The design and customs associated with it originated in the Irish fishing village of Claddagh, located just outside the city of Galway. The ring was first produced in the 17th century during the reign of Queen Mary II, though elements of the design are much older.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Claddaghring.jpg

I have grown up around people wearing this ring, and have had the cultural significance explained to me many times. “The way that a Claddagh ring is worn on the hand is usually intended to convey the wearer’s romantic availability, or lack thereof. The ring is worn on the right hand with the heart facing outward to show that the wearer is not romantically linked but is looking for love. When turned inwards, it is shown that the wearer is in a relationship, or their heart has been “captured”; the heart is points down the hand and into the veins which lead to the wearer’s heart. The ring worn on the left hand with the heart facing outward shows the wearer is engaged; turned inward indicates the wearer is married.[1]” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claddagh_ring

I bet you have seen people wearing them as well.

Many Irish American people I know strongly identify as Irish– not on St. Paddy’s day, but every day. They don’t wear green and do jigs, but they do visit or desire to visit Ireland. They do have family who lives there, or who immigrated from there, even quite recently. They do have Irish recipes passed down through their families, songs and traditions as well.

Maybe you think all white people have “lost” their cultural distinctness, but maybe you are just not looking closely enough. Keeping in mind that Irish Americans are a very common cultural group in America today, you might just be looking at an Irish cultural tradition and think you are looking at something “white”.

Really? I beg to differ. Are you serious?

Both of those cultures have been distilled into nice little packs of commercially sellability:

Italian culture = Mafia, Jersey Shore, Eating lots of food, having big families Irish culture = lucky charms, st. patricks day, shamrocks, and drinking.

I’d say most of the 2nd generation members of these cultures and Eastern Europeans as well know less about their culture than what the mainstream “American” conception is. And it’s completely reasonable, because the already existing elite could make an easy sell to other european cultures : we look more similar, so forget your culture, as we forgot ours, and then we’ll let you in the club.. sort of. (because I think there’s an inner sense of resentment that the cost of privilege is so high – this is why so many white Americans really dislike any sort of public display of culture or “diversity” )

This isn’t happening as quickly with Asians for two reasons:

Race is still strongly connected to skin color, and Asians are different enough that a blurry line can be drawn. This will only stop when the “white race” ceases to exist. meaning the old one’s have to die, the rest have to marry non-whites.

Many asians (to varying degrees) have stronger connections to their culture, and didn’t have it forcibly ripped away (as in the case with african americans) or didn’t have incentive to cast it away (as with the later european immigrants)

Tim Wise has a great anecdote, he was in a bar once, and an irish artist was singing and playing celtic songs in a restaurant (or bar) for St. Patricks day (you know.. to actually celebrate a cultural holiday) and someone yelled out “play some drinking songs!” And this is a perfect example of what I call cultural erosion, but it’s not even erosion (which is a natural process) rather it’s cultural dismemberment really. People are willingly not passing down their culture in hopes it makes them more ‘American’

Who says?

Italians and Irish seem pretty well known for passing down their cultural traditions.

Well, I would argue that “it” didn’t change spontaneously. these groups of people that you mention (mostly) willingly traded in their culture for the umbrella tern “white” for the privilege that came along with it. People did not pass down their culture as they wanted to newly identify themselves as “American.”

The writer, speaker, activist Tim Wise goes into this very clearly within the first few minutes of this video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc

“My point before that not whether or not it’s true, I was just pointing out how silly it is”

and my point is, irrespective of how “silly” it is, it’s not to be ignored when (however it’s defined) it has tangible, real-life effects on people’s quality of living and experiences. Some of which, you may not be aware of.

People are not “Brown” in India, they are “black”, “dark” “wheatish”, “fair” and so forth.

Not that long ago, Irish people, Italians and Eastern Europeans were not considered “white” either. They were considered separate and “degenerate”. Now they are fully accepted as “white”. Many E. Europeans and Italians now under the label of “white” have darker skin and eyes, yet that doesn’t seem to be a barrier.

The question is, what exactly does “white” mean in America? It means skin tone– but over time more and more people are getting lumped together under the one category. It is weird because it is social construct and also a description of appearance, and the two are not always employed at the same time.

One might argue that being “white” is following the predominate American culture (i.e. the “melting pot”) which would make sense when people make comments such as “X minority (or person) is trying to be white”. When someone says that the don’t mean they are trying to change their skin tone, they mean that they are trying to change their social behavior to fit into a certain “norm” of white culture. Hence we get [offensive] terms like “twinkie” and “Oreo”. Groups often described as “model minorities” are usually one’s that people see as “acting white”, accepting the predominate (in America) white culture and becoming successful within that culture.

Yet, yes, there is that skin tone aspect too– because America is obviously not just white culture. If it was, then it wouldn’t be considered “white culture” it would be “American culture”. But it is usually accepted that white culture and African American culture are two separate things.

If we look at President Obama, for example, what do we see him as? I think he is a perfect example of how complicated the while defining based on race is– He is half African, half white. He was mainly raised by his white mother and grandparents (but also lived in Malaysia as a child). He has brown skin, and looks decidedly white AND African (to me at least). He is a successful human being. So how do we define him?

We could argue, he is half white, he was mainly raised by white people, is “acting white” (he is the President of the United States after all, so is he an active and accepting participant of “white” culture?)

Yet President Obama is invariably defined as an African-American.

So yeah, Shilip, you are right, it is not just about skin tone. It is also not just about being part of a certain culture. It is a combination of the two, and the two vary by situation– but when all else fails, we use skin color to define people.

My point before that not whether or not it’s true, I was just pointing out how silly it is. If it was purely based on skin color, what would I be considered? I have no idea. If it was purely based on culture what would you be considered?

All I know is that just because it is a certain way, doesn’t mean it is unchanging. If we to remove terminology, change terminology, challenge people to think a new way, we can. If it didn’t change than Irish people, Italians, and E. Europeans would all be considered minority groups, and I would have my own box to check on the U.S. census this year, instead of the umbrella term “white” that my people somehow now belong to.

How different would America be right now if that lumping of people had never happened? Would racial relations between groups be better, since “white” would be a much smaller minority with a vast array of minority groups? Or would it be crazy and splintered, with people not getting along outside their own group? Hard to image of course.

(disclaimer: While I hope nothing I said sounds this way, I would like to add that I in no way prescribe to an ideology that “white” and “white cultural” are better than another other group. My discussion is based purely on an intellectual thought process, and I do not necessarily support one idea over an other as “the” answer or solution. I am merely pointing out some of the multi-faceted aspects to “race” in America, and I hope that my comments read more as thoughts than any definitive opinion on the matter)