Comments on: India as backdrop for Israeli debate http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Lupus Solitarius http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237554 Lupus Solitarius Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:38:23 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237554 <blockquote>If you're extra-polite in India, you will never be able to get anything done. </blockquote> <p>Well if you are timid and non assertive, yes, you'll be pushed over. But the definition of politeness varies. You don't have to say 'please' and 'sorry' constantly in India. Politeness can be calling someone 'aap' or ''ji', offering a little help, showing signs of respect, making small talk etc. I have always done it, and can't say that I haven't been able to get things done. The things that frustrate me are the traffic and lack of queues.</p> If you’re extra-polite in India, you will never be able to get anything done.

Well if you are timid and non assertive, yes, you’ll be pushed over. But the definition of politeness varies. You don’t have to say ‘please’ and ‘sorry’ constantly in India. Politeness can be calling someone ‘aap’ or ”ji’, offering a little help, showing signs of respect, making small talk etc. I have always done it, and can’t say that I haven’t been able to get things done. The things that frustrate me are the traffic and lack of queues.

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By: Pahar Ganj Falafel http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237546 Pahar Ganj Falafel Fri, 17 Apr 2009 18:26:54 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237546 <p>I would not compare all tourists in India to the Isreali rave crowd.</p> <p>I think their rude and aggressive behaviour can be attributed to drugs and the subsequent mood swings that drug users go through frequently - daily, hourly, even from moment to moment.</p> <p>On the contrary, many non-Isreali tourists go to India with an overly reverent attitude, bordering on worship for all things and all people "Indian".</p> <p>However, to be fair, we all know that India can really set people off sometimes. Things can be so frustrating there and sometimes ordinarily calm and cool folk can be pushed to the edge.</p> <p>India has a way of pushing alot of buttons.</p> <p>And if we really want to be honest, when you see at how yelling at "help" is common in India - by, for and towards other Indians, well, you start to think that "this is the way people communicate with each other here".</p> <p>Until you meet an ultra bhadra-lok parivara and then you wonder "what is wrong with them?"... Then after sometime it dawns on you that just because most of India carries on that way "yelling at help", doesn't mean that it is neccessarily "right".</p> <p>But then is it wrong? So many times I've thought people were fighting and they say, "oh we're just having a conversation".</p> <p>Can be very confusing.</p> <p>If you're extra-polite in India, you will never be able to get anything done.</p> I would not compare all tourists in India to the Isreali rave crowd.

I think their rude and aggressive behaviour can be attributed to drugs and the subsequent mood swings that drug users go through frequently – daily, hourly, even from moment to moment.

On the contrary, many non-Isreali tourists go to India with an overly reverent attitude, bordering on worship for all things and all people “Indian”.

However, to be fair, we all know that India can really set people off sometimes. Things can be so frustrating there and sometimes ordinarily calm and cool folk can be pushed to the edge.

India has a way of pushing alot of buttons.

And if we really want to be honest, when you see at how yelling at “help” is common in India – by, for and towards other Indians, well, you start to think that “this is the way people communicate with each other here”.

Until you meet an ultra bhadra-lok parivara and then you wonder “what is wrong with them?”… Then after sometime it dawns on you that just because most of India carries on that way “yelling at help”, doesn’t mean that it is neccessarily “right”.

But then is it wrong? So many times I’ve thought people were fighting and they say, “oh we’re just having a conversation”.

Can be very confusing.

If you’re extra-polite in India, you will never be able to get anything done.

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By: Ennis http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237534 Ennis Fri, 17 Apr 2009 14:29:50 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237534 <blockquote> Hmm. this is the second time from you talking about Israeli slight on India. Do i see a motive? </blockquote> <p>I didn't say this was a slight on India at all. To the contrary I said that Indians were invisible and that was weird to me, but it was probably realistic and no different from the way Americans behave when they go to Mexico.</p> <p>We blog about things that amuse us, not just things that irritate us. We're not one trick ponies.</p> Hmm. this is the second time from you talking about Israeli slight on India. Do i see a motive?

I didn’t say this was a slight on India at all. To the contrary I said that Indians were invisible and that was weird to me, but it was probably realistic and no different from the way Americans behave when they go to Mexico.

We blog about things that amuse us, not just things that irritate us. We’re not one trick ponies.

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By: Ponniyin Selvan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237531 Ponniyin Selvan Fri, 17 Apr 2009 13:34:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237531 <blockquote>It’s odd for me as a brown to see India both visible and invisible in these clips. </blockquote> <blockquote>The references to India are pretty slight; </blockquote> <p>It's odd for me as an Indian to find anything odd with the clips. I don't see any slight to India.</p> <p>I saw a Hindi movie (Jism) with the story taking place in Pondicherry. I never thought the movie is a slight for Tamils / Pondicherry because of the lack of references to Tamils or their culture.</p> <p>I think directors / story writers are more interested in their target audience than the people who happen to live in the locale of their film shoots.</p> <p>Hmm. this is the second time from you talking about Israeli slight on India. Do i see a motive?. :-)</p> It’s odd for me as a brown to see India both visible and invisible in these clips.
The references to India are pretty slight;

It’s odd for me as an Indian to find anything odd with the clips. I don’t see any slight to India.

I saw a Hindi movie (Jism) with the story taking place in Pondicherry. I never thought the movie is a slight for Tamils / Pondicherry because of the lack of references to Tamils or their culture.

I think directors / story writers are more interested in their target audience than the people who happen to live in the locale of their film shoots.

Hmm. this is the second time from you talking about Israeli slight on India. Do i see a motive?. :-)

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By: capuccino lassi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237512 capuccino lassi Fri, 17 Apr 2009 05:57:51 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237512 <p>This thread brings back memories of a brief stay in Israel. Shall I ever forget the troop of Israeli soldiers who marched on the beach and then took a group piss facing the sea, backs politely to the crowds? The Americans I was with got angry but I thought it was kind of funny. It didn't hit anybody, and I guess taking a quick piss in public without missing a beat was part of bootcamp.</p> <p>Between that, and the Russian woman washing her sandy toddler off in the drinking fountain, I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore.</p> <p>There was a lot of interest in what they considered Indian spirituality, but Israelis are among the most insular individuals in the entire world.</p> This thread brings back memories of a brief stay in Israel. Shall I ever forget the troop of Israeli soldiers who marched on the beach and then took a group piss facing the sea, backs politely to the crowds? The Americans I was with got angry but I thought it was kind of funny. It didn’t hit anybody, and I guess taking a quick piss in public without missing a beat was part of bootcamp.

Between that, and the Russian woman washing her sandy toddler off in the drinking fountain, I knew I wasn’t in Kansas anymore.

There was a lot of interest in what they considered Indian spirituality, but Israelis are among the most insular individuals in the entire world.

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By: capuccino lassi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237511 capuccino lassi Fri, 17 Apr 2009 05:39:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237511 <p>"Israeli Arabs and the ultra-orthodox are both exempt from the draft.</p> <p>i thought muslim arabs weren't allowed to join the army?"</p> <p>A lot of the Israeli Arabs are Christian Arabs, though I don't know the percentage. In the city of Haifa, for instance, the Arabs are mostly Christians and this town is known for its relatively harmonious interethnic relations, though even there they don't mix too much. btw, there was an Indian restaurant there. The owners were actually Jews whose ancestors had lived in India for generations, and they did look Indian--but sort of Jewish too. A co-worker from Iraq told me that one third of Iraq had been Christian until the late 70s, after which time most fled. I'd had no idea there were so many Christians in the middle east, other than Lebananon and Syria. The Christian Arabs are MUCH less anti-Jewish state, for obvious reasons. Also Druze and some other minority groups are considered good soldiers in the Israeli army.</p> “Israeli Arabs and the ultra-orthodox are both exempt from the draft.

i thought muslim arabs weren’t allowed to join the army?”

A lot of the Israeli Arabs are Christian Arabs, though I don’t know the percentage. In the city of Haifa, for instance, the Arabs are mostly Christians and this town is known for its relatively harmonious interethnic relations, though even there they don’t mix too much. btw, there was an Indian restaurant there. The owners were actually Jews whose ancestors had lived in India for generations, and they did look Indian–but sort of Jewish too. A co-worker from Iraq told me that one third of Iraq had been Christian until the late 70s, after which time most fled. I’d had no idea there were so many Christians in the middle east, other than Lebananon and Syria. The Christian Arabs are MUCH less anti-Jewish state, for obvious reasons. Also Druze and some other minority groups are considered good soldiers in the Israeli army.

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By: Yoga Fire http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237507 Yoga Fire Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:55:02 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237507 <blockquote>yoga fire, the whole thing makes it sound like getting treated badly is their own fault. is that really what ur trying to say?</blockquote> <p><em>sigh</em> I really should have to explain myself. First, I'm explaining why an Israeli would be prone to mistreating an Indian there. It's because they're dealing with people who aren't likely to stand up to them. If someone is being an asshole in your store <i>kick them out.</i> It's YOUR store.</p> <p>If you're going to do business with assholes I don't want to hear whining about how they're assholes. Is that so hard? If they tried those sorts of shenanigans in Mumbai some neighborhood toughs would show up to teach them a lesson.</p> yoga fire, the whole thing makes it sound like getting treated badly is their own fault. is that really what ur trying to say?

sigh I really should have to explain myself. First, I’m explaining why an Israeli would be prone to mistreating an Indian there. It’s because they’re dealing with people who aren’t likely to stand up to them. If someone is being an asshole in your store kick them out. It’s YOUR store.

If you’re going to do business with assholes I don’t want to hear whining about how they’re assholes. Is that so hard? If they tried those sorts of shenanigans in Mumbai some neighborhood toughs would show up to teach them a lesson.

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By: Lupus Solitarius http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237502 Lupus Solitarius Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:27:57 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237502 <blockquote>As a long time resident of N.Goa I can tell you one instance of a beach north of little Vagator that was taken over by Israelis who renamed it as Tel Aviv beach and would not Indians except for the locals that ran the shacks and rooms for rent onto the beach till they were warned by the local SP in charge N.Goa</blockquote> <p>And the citizens of Goa just stood by and watched, as unarmed foreigners took over a beach in their own state? Can Goans even think of creating a 'Goa Beach' in Israel?. Ought to show some spine, my <strike>man</strike> friend. I remember being in a Delhi pub where some drunken Brits started misbehaving first with the waiters, and then with the management. You should have seen how quickly they were 'sorted out'.</p> <blockquote>Only with the Russians and North Indians (read Dilliwalas) coming in large numbers and buying up land has the animosity against the Israelis eased.</blockquote> <p>So, who do hate most theses days? Russians, North Indians, or Israelis?</p> As a long time resident of N.Goa I can tell you one instance of a beach north of little Vagator that was taken over by Israelis who renamed it as Tel Aviv beach and would not Indians except for the locals that ran the shacks and rooms for rent onto the beach till they were warned by the local SP in charge N.Goa

And the citizens of Goa just stood by and watched, as unarmed foreigners took over a beach in their own state? Can Goans even think of creating a ‘Goa Beach’ in Israel?. Ought to show some spine, my man friend. I remember being in a Delhi pub where some drunken Brits started misbehaving first with the waiters, and then with the management. You should have seen how quickly they were ‘sorted out’.

Only with the Russians and North Indians (read Dilliwalas) coming in large numbers and buying up land has the animosity against the Israelis eased.

So, who do hate most theses days? Russians, North Indians, or Israelis?

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By: Fazgun http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237501 Fazgun Thu, 16 Apr 2009 22:36:49 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237501 <p>As a long time resident of N.Goa I can tell you one instance of a beach north of little Vagator that was taken over by Israelis who renamed it as Tel Aviv beach and would not Indians except for the locals that ran the shacks and rooms for rent onto the beach till they were warned by the local SP in charge N.Goa that they would be expelled en masse unless they let free access to the beach. To this day there is always problems with the racist attitudes of the Israelis towards Indians. Only with the Russians and North Indians (read Dilliwalas) coming in large numbers and buying up land has the animosity against the Israelis eased.</p> As a long time resident of N.Goa I can tell you one instance of a beach north of little Vagator that was taken over by Israelis who renamed it as Tel Aviv beach and would not Indians except for the locals that ran the shacks and rooms for rent onto the beach till they were warned by the local SP in charge N.Goa that they would be expelled en masse unless they let free access to the beach. To this day there is always problems with the racist attitudes of the Israelis towards Indians. Only with the Russians and North Indians (read Dilliwalas) coming in large numbers and buying up land has the animosity against the Israelis eased.

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By: sam http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2009/04/15/india_as_backdr/comment-page-1/#comment-237497 sam Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:15:49 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5731#comment-237497 <blockquote>Ankur, the people the Israelis are interacting with aren't exactly the most independent. If the only interactions they have with Indians are with people there to serve them (wait staff and whatnot) then they're going to take that mentality. It's a consequence on hanging out in a tourist enclave rather than being in the thick of it and having to get shoved out of the way when trying to get on the bus. That and the fact that Indians in general seem to have an inferiority complex when confronted with assertive Whites and on top of that don't have the money to be able to afford to throw anyone out. We may be nominally decolonized but mentally many are still enthralled. </blockquote> <p>yoga fire, the whole thing makes it sound like getting treated badly is their own fault. is that really what ur trying to say?</p> Ankur, the people the Israelis are interacting with aren’t exactly the most independent. If the only interactions they have with Indians are with people there to serve them (wait staff and whatnot) then they’re going to take that mentality. It’s a consequence on hanging out in a tourist enclave rather than being in the thick of it and having to get shoved out of the way when trying to get on the bus. That and the fact that Indians in general seem to have an inferiority complex when confronted with assertive Whites and on top of that don’t have the money to be able to afford to throw anyone out. We may be nominally decolonized but mentally many are still enthralled.

yoga fire, the whole thing makes it sound like getting treated badly is their own fault. is that really what ur trying to say?

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