Great point about Ambedkar.

I have recently started reading (some re-reading) of Ambedkar’s works including his speeches in the Constituent Assembly.It is a pity that Congress has successfully painted Ambedkar = reservations for SCs and STs, and nothing more than that.Ambedkar’s ideas about various aspects of Indian society have not recd much publicity at all. May be the devious Nehru and other Congress stalwarts are to be blamed for this.

The Indian version of secularism is a joke. But it is not just now, the history runs deep. Ambedkar in the late 30s (or early 40s) ridiculed the attitudes of folks like Gandhi et. al in matters related to Muslim communalism. We can see the progressive deterioration from 1947. I don’t think there is any hope on that front.

he..he… well said. that’s actually the truth now.

absolutely, there has been chilling silence on this issue. vote bank politics has meant that extremists of every ilk are appeased unabashedly by politicians, which is why media and law enforcement have lost their teeth to deal with issues like these. and since every party is falling over itself to court extremist/fundamentalist muslim organizations, secularism has become a joke. as extremist muslim organizations acquire more power and political capital, moderate muslim voices get sidelined and progressivism stalls (do not want to go into this here, but see the recent tug-of-war on madrassa modernization and funding proposals).

While you guys (It often is the guys) yammer on about our great Hindu Culture, and Vy Aren’t You Talking About XYZ community as well, civil society is going down the tubes.

My delicate feelings would be devastated by this barb, if I wasn’t completely flummoxed by its irrelevance.

It’s not irrelevant at all–it’s why India-trained historians are treated with such (deserved) disdain in the US–they’ve just been taught a bunch of left-tard nonsense.

rob on historians? now that’s one for the ages

All life is valuable. Those who tried to justify their actions with notions of collective punishment for a previous crime are categorically wrong. Should I reach back to the myriad of riots where more hindus died to justify or obscure the gujarat riots? No. Any given crime at any given time must be uniformly and categorically condemned. But again, the deaths of 250 innocent hindus in the rioting was just as tragic as the roughly 700 innocent muslims. Please at least remember their lives as well when you recount the Gujarat riots. They after all did not magically disappear either.

Fundamentally, this all boils down to the one factor: the breakdown of government in India. Under the UPA especially, it has become a kakistocracy (rule by the very worst people). Crimes are always looked through the prism of political benefits and order systematically and effectively neglected. A guilty terrorist isn’t executed in spite of his open statements of guilt because a political party doesn’t find it politically beneficial. What’s the message to others like him? India’s a soft state that plays favorites. Just make enough noise, misinform enough people, and you too can get away with murder. India doesn’t even seek to fight the maoists on its own. It created the Salwa Judum, a group of tribals dedicated to fight the Maoists’ brutal insurgency in India’s Red Corridor. Guess what happened? The populace in that region (primarily chattisgarh and jharkhand) is now doubly oppressed. Yet another group of vigilantes was injected into the system. This outsourcing of the fundamental duties of government, politicization of the CBI and now CEC, and rank duplicity and treachery in the prosecution of the guilty (irrespective of which side or religion) is ultimately what is hurting the country.

Billy, thanks again for reaching out to politely discuss. I hope now you understand why I think neither crime should be forgotten.

Sure, Actually it’s 80.2% according to the 2001 census.

Ideally I’d like the so called “secularists” to speak out against Hindutvadis and so called “communalists” to speak out against Islamists and missionaries so that I get the full picture and both sides of the story.

I was hoping to see atleast one editorial in a major newspaper or some statements from leading “secular” intellectuals about the arrest of an editor for offending Muslims, unfortunately looks like as far as they are concerned, nothing happened. Imagine, if Gujarat government under Modi arrested editor for publishing what Karunanidhi said about Rama. All hell would have broken loose.

I have honestly been disgusted by the media silence on the Statesman issue. The media does not do itself any favors as a neutral reporter on society by behavior such as this.

That, however, does not change the facts about Muthalik or the place of these events in a larger trend. The facts about Muthalik and his association with the Hindu right, and the revolving door he’s enjoyed over a long period of time, are all matters of record, not opinions. Also, as I’ve said before, a movement that radicalizes a (hitherto relatively peaceful) 85% majority religious community in the one relatively reasonable democracy in the subcontinent – the place I call home – is a poison that I feel compelled to speak out against.

I can see some of your point of view, SecularPlease. What amazes me is that you can’t see why th ekilling of over a thousand innocent Muslims supercedes the original horror of the event of Godhra.

Collective punishment, collective killing. If a thousand Muslims had been murdered on the streets of London after the July 7th terrorist suicide-bombing in which 55 people were killed, and in response 1000 innocent Muslims who pulled from their homes and cars and lynched, you can be sure that the initial assault would be obscured.

Why is that so hard for you to see? And I say that as someone who does admit that there are double standards at play on some of these issues.