Comments on: Some Pakistan GWOT Updates… http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Kabir Altaf http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-223793 Kabir Altaf Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:03:03 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-223793 <p>I'm not out to look for excuses to cry victimization. Almost this entire comment thread is full of vitriol against Pakistan, people glefully discussing what would happen should the state go bankrupt and Pakistanis all "starve to death". Then, India can use the opportunity to "kick them out of Kashmir". The fact that this vitriol has been left standing for a whole month almost, and that no one who commented on the thread even bothered to rein in the unacceptable discourse is extremely disturbing. And to address your final paragraph: don't tell me what I should or should not do, I find that extremely condescending. Anyway, I'm done with Sepia Mutiny. I have been successfully turned off. It's your blog. Go ahead and be as anti-Pakistan or anti-anything else as you want. Good luck to you.</p> I’m not out to look for excuses to cry victimization. Almost this entire comment thread is full of vitriol against Pakistan, people glefully discussing what would happen should the state go bankrupt and Pakistanis all “starve to death”. Then, India can use the opportunity to “kick them out of Kashmir”. The fact that this vitriol has been left standing for a whole month almost, and that no one who commented on the thread even bothered to rein in the unacceptable discourse is extremely disturbing. And to address your final paragraph: don’t tell me what I should or should not do, I find that extremely condescending. Anyway, I’m done with Sepia Mutiny. I have been successfully turned off. It’s your blog. Go ahead and be as anti-Pakistan or anti-anything else as you want. Good luck to you.

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By: what? http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-223770 what? Sun, 07 Dec 2008 04:16:16 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-223770 <p><i>9 · <b><a href="http://southasianidea.com" rel="nofollow">Kabir Altaf</a></b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005511.html#comment223769">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>Why was this comment not deleted? It seems to fall under sepia's own rules regarding racist, abusive and intolerant comments. It's reading things like this that makes people like me feel that this blog and its commenters/readers have an anti-pakistan bias (however subtle they try to be about it at times). thanks.</blockquote> <p>are you just out to look for excuses to cry victimization? if you are going to cherrypick the odd undeleted comment - as this one clearly is, you can find examples of anti-pakistan, anti-india, anti-women, anti-men, anti-hindu, anti-america, anti-brown (cue the periodic spam about smelling like curry) and anti-anything under the sun.</p> <p>further, vinod is much worse at moderation than other bloggers. for example, his previous post still has incorrect information on the mob despite multiple comments to the contrary.</p> <p>you would be better served to examine contents of legitimate arguments instead of constantly trying to paint people as having an anti-muslim/anti-pakistan bias, often purely because they state uncomfortable facts, as you did on the other thread.</p> 9 · Kabir Altaf said

Why was this comment not deleted? It seems to fall under sepia’s own rules regarding racist, abusive and intolerant comments. It’s reading things like this that makes people like me feel that this blog and its commenters/readers have an anti-pakistan bias (however subtle they try to be about it at times). thanks.

are you just out to look for excuses to cry victimization? if you are going to cherrypick the odd undeleted comment – as this one clearly is, you can find examples of anti-pakistan, anti-india, anti-women, anti-men, anti-hindu, anti-america, anti-brown (cue the periodic spam about smelling like curry) and anti-anything under the sun.

further, vinod is much worse at moderation than other bloggers. for example, his previous post still has incorrect information on the mob despite multiple comments to the contrary.

you would be better served to examine contents of legitimate arguments instead of constantly trying to paint people as having an anti-muslim/anti-pakistan bias, often purely because they state uncomfortable facts, as you did on the other thread.

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By: Kabir Altaf http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-223769 Kabir Altaf Sun, 07 Dec 2008 04:06:07 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-223769 <p><i>4 · <B><A href="mailto:antipaki34@homail.com" rel=nofollow>down with pakistan</A></B> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005511.html#comment220953">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>So Pakistan will go bankrupt?? Good, i hope they will and that they all starve to death. Hopefully the americans bomb the shit out of pakistan. India should take an example from america and bomb the hell out of the terrortrainingscamps in paki occupied Kashmir instead of doing the whole useless diplomatic protest thingy every time an infiltration attempt (supported by the cover fire of paki military) happens </blockquote> <p>Why was this comment not deleted? It seems to fall under sepia's own rules regarding racist, abusive and intolerant comments. It's reading things like this that makes people like me feel that this blog and its commenters/readers have an anti-pakistan bias (however subtle they try to be about it at times). thanks.</p> 4 · down with pakistan said

So Pakistan will go bankrupt?? Good, i hope they will and that they all starve to death. Hopefully the americans bomb the shit out of pakistan. India should take an example from america and bomb the hell out of the terrortrainingscamps in paki occupied Kashmir instead of doing the whole useless diplomatic protest thingy every time an infiltration attempt (supported by the cover fire of paki military) happens

Why was this comment not deleted? It seems to fall under sepia’s own rules regarding racist, abusive and intolerant comments. It’s reading things like this that makes people like me feel that this blog and its commenters/readers have an anti-pakistan bias (however subtle they try to be about it at times). thanks.

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By: Ponniyin Selvan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-220999 Ponniyin Selvan Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:23:34 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-220999 <p><i>BTW, this whole Kashmir issue wouldn't have been a problem if that morron Nehru didn't stop the advances of the Indian army and didn't declare a cease fire and take that issue to the U.N. That was one of the big foreign policy blunders India made. </i></p> <p>Do you know the circumstances around 1946-48 ?. Another basic question. Do you know who headed the Indian Army at that time and what kind of control that Nehru/Patel had over the army and similarly what kind of control Jinnah had over the Pakistani army?.</p> BTW, this whole Kashmir issue wouldn’t have been a problem if that morron Nehru didn’t stop the advances of the Indian army and didn’t declare a cease fire and take that issue to the U.N. That was one of the big foreign policy blunders India made.

Do you know the circumstances around 1946-48 ?. Another basic question. Do you know who headed the Indian Army at that time and what kind of control that Nehru/Patel had over the army and similarly what kind of control Jinnah had over the Pakistani army?.

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By: anthroguy http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-220991 anthroguy Wed, 12 Nov 2008 06:02:33 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-220991 <p>idk about this pakistan invasion guys. Obama has made some comments on how he will give special attention to the Kashmir conflict which in western politico speak regarding this issue usually means to pressure India to give something up as the other side is too indebted to the cause (ie if Pakistan gave up on Kashmir their country would further loosen by the screws and very nearly fall apart) to make any sort of concessions. The best case scenario is Pakistan finally acknowledging its losing the war of attrition with India that has played out for the past 20 years and just concentrating on putting itself back together rather than dismembering India. This would allow it to ease up on defence spending and give it easier access to IMF funds. It would also make it far more palatable for western governments to give money to them.</p> <p>They can choose to focus their efforts on getting Kashmir back militarily but it would be at the risk of their own national disintegration as the Talibanization of the western provinces would occur unabated. As for what the Taliban are doing there, <b>you reap what you sow</b>.</p> idk about this pakistan invasion guys. Obama has made some comments on how he will give special attention to the Kashmir conflict which in western politico speak regarding this issue usually means to pressure India to give something up as the other side is too indebted to the cause (ie if Pakistan gave up on Kashmir their country would further loosen by the screws and very nearly fall apart) to make any sort of concessions. The best case scenario is Pakistan finally acknowledging its losing the war of attrition with India that has played out for the past 20 years and just concentrating on putting itself back together rather than dismembering India. This would allow it to ease up on defence spending and give it easier access to IMF funds. It would also make it far more palatable for western governments to give money to them.

They can choose to focus their efforts on getting Kashmir back militarily but it would be at the risk of their own national disintegration as the Talibanization of the western provinces would occur unabated. As for what the Taliban are doing there, you reap what you sow.

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By: nash http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-220962 nash Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:41:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-220962 <p>Once pakistan does go bankrupt, India should use the opportunity to push Pakistan out of Kashmir. I do hope they're discussing this scenario in Indian military headquarters...</p> <p>Every professional self respecting military force should have plans for every possible scenario. I am sure that in the indian military circles they are discussing all posible scenario's and making their plans but i have serious doubts about the political class. History has proven that they have no balls to finish off the kill. Military takes orders from civilian politicians and they have no balls to go out and truly kick pakistani butt in such a way that the paki's never again try to do something (harmfull) against India.</p> <p>A essential part of every military campaign against Pakistan should be a preemptive strike against pakistan's nuke's. I hope that the RAW has it's agents in the paki military to find out the position/location of those nukes and missiles so they can be taken out in an eventual Indian preemptive strike. If that is done than it is over and out with pakistan because there is no way that the pakistani military can win a conventional war against India. They have never been able to acheive their goals in their wars against India and i don't think they ever will.</p> <p>BTW, this whole Kashmir issue wouldn't have been a problem if that morron Nehru didn't stop the advances of the Indian army and didn't declare a cease fire and take that issue to the U.N. That was one of the big foreign policy blunders India made.</p> Once pakistan does go bankrupt, India should use the opportunity to push Pakistan out of Kashmir. I do hope they’re discussing this scenario in Indian military headquarters…

Every professional self respecting military force should have plans for every possible scenario. I am sure that in the indian military circles they are discussing all posible scenario’s and making their plans but i have serious doubts about the political class. History has proven that they have no balls to finish off the kill. Military takes orders from civilian politicians and they have no balls to go out and truly kick pakistani butt in such a way that the paki’s never again try to do something (harmfull) against India.

A essential part of every military campaign against Pakistan should be a preemptive strike against pakistan’s nuke’s. I hope that the RAW has it’s agents in the paki military to find out the position/location of those nukes and missiles so they can be taken out in an eventual Indian preemptive strike. If that is done than it is over and out with pakistan because there is no way that the pakistani military can win a conventional war against India. They have never been able to acheive their goals in their wars against India and i don’t think they ever will.

BTW, this whole Kashmir issue wouldn’t have been a problem if that morron Nehru didn’t stop the advances of the Indian army and didn’t declare a cease fire and take that issue to the U.N. That was one of the big foreign policy blunders India made.

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By: zimblymallu http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-220957 zimblymallu Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:02:47 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-220957 <p>Once pakistan does go bankrupt, India should use the opportunity to push Pakistan out of Kashmir. I do hope they're discussing this scenario in Indian military headquarters...</p> Once pakistan does go bankrupt, India should use the opportunity to push Pakistan out of Kashmir. I do hope they’re discussing this scenario in Indian military headquarters…

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By: down with pakistan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-220953 down with pakistan Tue, 11 Nov 2008 20:37:38 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-220953 <p>So Pakistan will go bankrupt?? Good, i hope they will and that they all starve to death. Hopefully the americans bomb the shit out of pakistan. India should take an example from america and bomb the hell out of the terrortrainingscamps in paki occupied Kashmir instead of doing the whole useless diplomatic protest thingy every time an infiltration attempt (supported by the cover fire of paki military) happens</p> So Pakistan will go bankrupt?? Good, i hope they will and that they all starve to death. Hopefully the americans bomb the shit out of pakistan. India should take an example from america and bomb the hell out of the terrortrainingscamps in paki occupied Kashmir instead of doing the whole useless diplomatic protest thingy every time an infiltration attempt (supported by the cover fire of paki military) happens

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By: DizzyDesi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-220844 DizzyDesi Tue, 11 Nov 2008 06:12:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-220844 <blockquote>Odds are that between global trade + macro economic trends + domestic policies, Pakistan may be forced to declare bankruptcy in 2009 -</blockquote> <p>From "Defence faces dose of reality in feeling the pinch"</p> <blockquote>At the weekend the International Monetary Fund told Pakistan it must dramatically slash its military spending (by up to 30 per cent) if it wants to qualify for a bail-out package. Pakistan won't do this,...</blockquote> <p>Currently, Pakistan is spending 4.5 percent of the GDP on defence. A 30% cut will still mean that it will spend 3.15% .</p> <p>India for comaprision spends 2%. (The base is larger, but so are the threats and India) and India does not get huge US subsidies on defense, the way Pakistan does.</p> <p>As this is going on, Pakistan is pushing for a $1Billion upgrade of its F-16s, purchasing new submarines that are more advanced that what Indian Navy has, and is purchasing new Anti-Submarine frigates. (note purchasing, not buying, so the money does not go into the economy). Almost all of the spending has nothing to do with GWOT.</p> <p>Pakistan's population is growing at an average of 1.86 (India's is 1.4, the world average is 1.17). Almost all the countries with a larger rate than pakistan are TPLACs (tin pot little aftrican countries) or oil rich Sheikdoms. Pakistan actually has a pretty decent growth rate, but they have screwed up priorities.</p> <p>Pakistan has the right to set its priorities without International influence. But the filp side of it is should not expect international assistance either.</p> <p>Unless the international community insists that Pakistan is defanged, I do not see why they should come to Pakistans assistance.</p> Odds are that between global trade + macro economic trends + domestic policies, Pakistan may be forced to declare bankruptcy in 2009 -

From “Defence faces dose of reality in feeling the pinch”

At the weekend the International Monetary Fund told Pakistan it must dramatically slash its military spending (by up to 30 per cent) if it wants to qualify for a bail-out package. Pakistan won’t do this,…

Currently, Pakistan is spending 4.5 percent of the GDP on defence. A 30% cut will still mean that it will spend 3.15% .

India for comaprision spends 2%. (The base is larger, but so are the threats and India) and India does not get huge US subsidies on defense, the way Pakistan does.

As this is going on, Pakistan is pushing for a $1Billion upgrade of its F-16s, purchasing new submarines that are more advanced that what Indian Navy has, and is purchasing new Anti-Submarine frigates. (note purchasing, not buying, so the money does not go into the economy). Almost all of the spending has nothing to do with GWOT.

Pakistan’s population is growing at an average of 1.86 (India’s is 1.4, the world average is 1.17). Almost all the countries with a larger rate than pakistan are TPLACs (tin pot little aftrican countries) or oil rich Sheikdoms. Pakistan actually has a pretty decent growth rate, but they have screwed up priorities.

Pakistan has the right to set its priorities without International influence. But the filp side of it is should not expect international assistance either.

Unless the international community insists that Pakistan is defanged, I do not see why they should come to Pakistans assistance.

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By: Vikram http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/11/10/some_pakistan_g/comment-page-1/#comment-220833 Vikram Tue, 11 Nov 2008 05:18:14 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5511#comment-220833 <p>It is interesting to see this aggressive turn of tactics rather than the very risk averse first days of the Afghan campaign. Seems a case of too little, too late. Excerpts from an interview with a Delta Force member who led a crucial mission in 2001:</p> <blockquote> Delta Force Commander Says The Best Plan To Kill The Al Qaeda Leader In 2001 Was Nixed But the administration's strategy was to let Afghans do most of the fighting. Using radio intercepts and other intelligence, the CIA pinpointed bin Laden in the mountains near the border of Pakistan. Following the strategy of keeping an Afghan face on the war, Fury's Delta team joined the CIA and Afghan fighters and piled into pickup trucks. They videotaped their journey to a place called Tora Bora. Delta developed an audacious plan to come at bin Laden from the one direction he would never expect. "We want to come in on the back door," Fury explains. "The original plan that we sent up through our higher headquarters, Delta Force wants to come in over the mountain with oxygen, coming from the Pakistan side, over the mountains and come in and get a drop on bin Laden from behind." But they didn't take that route, because Fury says they didn't get approval from a higher level. "Whether that was Central Command all the way up to the president of the United States, I'm not sure," he says. <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml">link</a> </blockquote> <p>We should know soon enough via the NY Times whether the new administration will follow these or other covert strategies.</p> It is interesting to see this aggressive turn of tactics rather than the very risk averse first days of the Afghan campaign. Seems a case of too little, too late. Excerpts from an interview with a Delta Force member who led a crucial mission in 2001:

Delta Force Commander Says The Best Plan To Kill The Al Qaeda Leader In 2001 Was Nixed But the administration’s strategy was to let Afghans do most of the fighting. Using radio intercepts and other intelligence, the CIA pinpointed bin Laden in the mountains near the border of Pakistan. Following the strategy of keeping an Afghan face on the war, Fury’s Delta team joined the CIA and Afghan fighters and piled into pickup trucks. They videotaped their journey to a place called Tora Bora. Delta developed an audacious plan to come at bin Laden from the one direction he would never expect. “We want to come in on the back door,” Fury explains. “The original plan that we sent up through our higher headquarters, Delta Force wants to come in over the mountain with oxygen, coming from the Pakistan side, over the mountains and come in and get a drop on bin Laden from behind.” But they didn’t take that route, because Fury says they didn’t get approval from a higher level. “Whether that was Central Command all the way up to the president of the United States, I’m not sure,” he says. link

We should know soon enough via the NY Times whether the new administration will follow these or other covert strategies.

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