Comments on: Communal Violence in Orissa: Trying to Get a Balanced Picture http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Soca Chutney Mix http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218667 Soca Chutney Mix Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:47:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218667 <p>I know there are a few South Indian Orthodox Christians here and if they could shed some light on South Indian Orthodox Christian history it would be enlightening. So far we are only discussing the later, western,proselytizing protestants. Christianity has been in India for two thousand years, longer than Sikhism and even Buddhism.</p> I know there are a few South Indian Orthodox Christians here and if they could shed some light on South Indian Orthodox Christian history it would be enlightening. So far we are only discussing the later, western,proselytizing protestants. Christianity has been in India for two thousand years, longer than Sikhism and even Buddhism.

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By: Siddharth http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218666 Siddharth Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:43:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218666 <p>To understand the religious culture of present day Puri Temple establishment that prohibits the entry of Muslims into the shrine one has to understand its complex history. A useful source here would be Herman Kulke’s works.</p> <p>Since the 1000s the temple has been the center of political power in Orissa. Various Orissan Hindu empires (roughly between 1000s-1560s) used Jagannatha to legitimate their rule in the region. Theirs was a multi-lingual (Oriya, Telegu, Sanskrit) theocratic state built around the deity and the temple establishment at Puri. At various points of time, they were in conflict with Turk-Afghans (in the north) and Vijayanagara (in south).</p> <p>In 1568, the empire suffered a major defeat and invading Turk-Afghan generals ransacked the politico-religious establishment of Puri and burnt the deities. For the next two decades the temple stood empty till a local Hindu successor state forged an alliance with Akbar and rebuilt and reinstalled the deities at the temple. In the successive centuries, depending on the Mughal state and its religious policies, the temple withstood near about sixteen raids. [To be historically fair, couple of times the Mughal attacks were led by Rajput officers. Once, a local Muslim subadar frustrated Aurangzeb’s order to burn the deities by coming to a financial understanding with the local Hindu king.]</p> <p>During these troubled times, the safety of the temple establishment depended largely on the priests and local power groups. They dealt with the problem by developing a strong akhada culture—priest-wrestlers—who will be able to transport the huge deities at a short notice to distant hideouts and resist any unwanted entry into the shrine for sufficient amounts of time. Secondly, they co-opted the idea of ‘burning/destroying’ and instituted a ritual (nava-kalebara, literally, new-body) in which the deities are burnt down every 12 years or so and re-built. Thirdly, they wrote histories and produced literature projecting the idea of Jagannatha’s invincibility and inextricably tied the history of the Oriya peoples with that of their deity.</p> <p>Popular local Hindu memory chose to ‘simplify’ the attacks on the temple and gradually developed a threat-perception. This ‘historical’ threat-perception continues today as a ritual that prohibits Muslims (‘yavana’ is the term used in the 18th century compilation of temple rituals, Niladrimahodaya) into the shrine. From the perspective of the temple establishment, this ritual should be seen together with another ritual, that of Ratha Yatra. Priests actively promote the annual chariot festival as an occasion when all, including yavanas, can have unhindered access to the Lord. Thus, a famous 18th century Muslim devotee of Jagannatha (Salbeg) would talk of his visit to Puri for a ‘darshan’ of Jagannatha.</p> To understand the religious culture of present day Puri Temple establishment that prohibits the entry of Muslims into the shrine one has to understand its complex history. A useful source here would be Herman Kulke’s works.

Since the 1000s the temple has been the center of political power in Orissa. Various Orissan Hindu empires (roughly between 1000s-1560s) used Jagannatha to legitimate their rule in the region. Theirs was a multi-lingual (Oriya, Telegu, Sanskrit) theocratic state built around the deity and the temple establishment at Puri. At various points of time, they were in conflict with Turk-Afghans (in the north) and Vijayanagara (in south).

In 1568, the empire suffered a major defeat and invading Turk-Afghan generals ransacked the politico-religious establishment of Puri and burnt the deities. For the next two decades the temple stood empty till a local Hindu successor state forged an alliance with Akbar and rebuilt and reinstalled the deities at the temple. In the successive centuries, depending on the Mughal state and its religious policies, the temple withstood near about sixteen raids. [To be historically fair, couple of times the Mughal attacks were led by Rajput officers. Once, a local Muslim subadar frustrated Aurangzeb’s order to burn the deities by coming to a financial understanding with the local Hindu king.]

During these troubled times, the safety of the temple establishment depended largely on the priests and local power groups. They dealt with the problem by developing a strong akhada culture—priest-wrestlers—who will be able to transport the huge deities at a short notice to distant hideouts and resist any unwanted entry into the shrine for sufficient amounts of time. Secondly, they co-opted the idea of ‘burning/destroying’ and instituted a ritual (nava-kalebara, literally, new-body) in which the deities are burnt down every 12 years or so and re-built. Thirdly, they wrote histories and produced literature projecting the idea of Jagannatha’s invincibility and inextricably tied the history of the Oriya peoples with that of their deity.

Popular local Hindu memory chose to ‘simplify’ the attacks on the temple and gradually developed a threat-perception. This ‘historical’ threat-perception continues today as a ritual that prohibits Muslims (‘yavana’ is the term used in the 18th century compilation of temple rituals, Niladrimahodaya) into the shrine. From the perspective of the temple establishment, this ritual should be seen together with another ritual, that of Ratha Yatra. Priests actively promote the annual chariot festival as an occasion when all, including yavanas, can have unhindered access to the Lord. Thus, a famous 18th century Muslim devotee of Jagannatha (Salbeg) would talk of his visit to Puri for a ‘darshan’ of Jagannatha.

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By: DesiInNJ http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218664 DesiInNJ Wed, 15 Oct 2008 02:34:43 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218664 <p>Atleast it is nice to see that Western Countries are becoming godless and closer to Eastern philosophies. I guess christanity will survive in colored people.</p> Atleast it is nice to see that Western Countries are becoming godless and closer to Eastern philosophies. I guess christanity will survive in colored people.

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By: Wayfarer http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218650 Wayfarer Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:22:40 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218650 <p>@Amradeep</p> <blockquote>Do you agree with my main point -- that many tribal religious practices were, until fairly recently, outside of the spectrum of Hinduism, and that therefore Hinduism is as much a "foreign" religion as is Christianity for many tribals?</blockquote> <p>Just the spin one wanted from the so called libertarians/leftist academia, for every source you can "Google" there are counter examples. I am hoping you will quote Max Meuller/Macaulay, to teach a few things to your fellow "desis" in pardes, and might even succeed in passing off the sheer number to tribal deities present in Hinduism, as something borrowed from the "monotheist/my religion is bigger than yours" zealots.</p> <p><a href="http://www.dailypioneer.com/127543/Tribal-Jagannath-as-a-Hindu-deity.html">Tribal Jagannath as a Hindu deity</a> Sandhya Jain Pioneer (Indias Oldest Newspaper) Tuesday, October 14, 2008</p> @Amradeep

Do you agree with my main point — that many tribal religious practices were, until fairly recently, outside of the spectrum of Hinduism, and that therefore Hinduism is as much a “foreign” religion as is Christianity for many tribals?

Just the spin one wanted from the so called libertarians/leftist academia, for every source you can “Google” there are counter examples. I am hoping you will quote Max Meuller/Macaulay, to teach a few things to your fellow “desis” in pardes, and might even succeed in passing off the sheer number to tribal deities present in Hinduism, as something borrowed from the “monotheist/my religion is bigger than yours” zealots.

Tribal Jagannath as a Hindu deity Sandhya Jain Pioneer (Indias Oldest Newspaper) Tuesday, October 14, 2008

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By: hmm http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218647 hmm Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:12:18 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218647 <p>Just type in your community name in the search bar.</p> Just type in your community name in the search bar.

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By: hmm http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218646 hmm Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:08:24 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218646 <p><i>141 · <b>Ponniyin Selvan</b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005463.html#comment218521">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>It is not just the low castes that have converted into Christianity. They have used different strategies for different castes.</blockquote> <p>For current strategies for your community, search in <a href="http://www.joshuaproject.net/">this</a> website.</p> 141 · Ponniyin Selvan said

It is not just the low castes that have converted into Christianity. They have used different strategies for different castes.

For current strategies for your community, search in this website.

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By: brown http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218645 brown Wed, 15 Oct 2008 01:05:23 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218645 <blockquote>Kiran, Which tribe do you belong to? </blockquote> <p>probably none. its the usual sepiamutiny troll, prema</p> Kiran, Which tribe do you belong to?

probably none. its the usual sepiamutiny troll, prema

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By: Corporate Serf http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218643 Corporate Serf Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:54:06 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218643 <p><i>208 · <B>Soca Chutney Mix</B> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005463.html#comment218632">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005463.html#comment218619 Ponniyin, click on the link above and follow directions. If you can, copy and paste the article here. I am unable to pull it up.</blockquote> <p>A google search on the heading you provided is not informative. It talks of Jagannath Temple in Kedargarh (sp?) but not the far more famous one in Puri. It seems to me that it would be impossible, as a practical matter, to exclude Dalits specifically, from the Puri Jagannath temple where most devotees would be anonymous; given essentially no visual difference between Dalits and non-Dalits; actually even between Hindus and non-Hindus.</p> 208 · Soca Chutney Mix said

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005463.html#comment218619 Ponniyin, click on the link above and follow directions. If you can, copy and paste the article here. I am unable to pull it up.

A google search on the heading you provided is not informative. It talks of Jagannath Temple in Kedargarh (sp?) but not the far more famous one in Puri. It seems to me that it would be impossible, as a practical matter, to exclude Dalits specifically, from the Puri Jagannath temple where most devotees would be anonymous; given essentially no visual difference between Dalits and non-Dalits; actually even between Hindus and non-Hindus.

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By: Kiran http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218640 Kiran Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:29:53 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218640 <p>Ponniyin Selvan on October 14, 2008 05:12 PM · Direct link · “Quote�(?)</p> <blockquote>Kiran: You and me share the same planet, but we live in different universes. Sorry to hear about your experiences buddy. I myself belong to a low caste and I have got close Dalit friends and I have a Dalit relative (my cousin married her Dalit classmate). So I can't agree with you that I have no idea of Dalits. If you think about it, You and Mayawati live in a different universe too. </blockquote> <p>I beg to differ Ponniyin, having a friend and a cousin marry a dalit is nothing like being one. Not every tribal/dalit is a Mayawati.. she is one of a kind.. and you are right She and I live in different universes. I stand by my assertion you will never know the hell that is a tribals or dalits life. Reading your posts it is clear you cannot even come close.. you say you know or act like you do.. is an insult to the suffering and torment tribals and dalits undergo everyday. Write to me when you have lost family to the hatred that someone put out because of your caste or religious beliefs, write to me when someone spits on your face because he thinks you are a low life and and it gets him brownie points with his crew, write to me you can't celebrate you main holiday because you fear a drunken mob will start an fight.. then may be you will have a vague idea.</p> <p>Ponniyin Selvan wrote:</p> <blockquote>I have read that missionaries used to meet every year in India in colonial days (maybe they do it even now) and compare their notes and see how successful they are in harvesting souls. Maybe if we can get the minutes of such meetings we'd have some ideas. It is not just the low castes that have converted into Christianity. They have used different strategies for different castes. </blockquote> <p>Pooniyin.. this smacks too much like the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion">The Protocols of the Elders of Zion</a> The Hitler and the Nazi's used it to try and exterminate the Jews in Europe.. the fascists are using it to cleanse india of Christians. There is definitely some sorta ideological connection between the Nazis and Hindu facists.</p> <p>It's this relentless propaganda that the hindu right puts out.. the constant never ending lies and hatred.. I'm glad I don't live there anymore.</p> Ponniyin Selvan on October 14, 2008 05:12 PM · Direct link · “Quote�(?)

Kiran: You and me share the same planet, but we live in different universes. Sorry to hear about your experiences buddy. I myself belong to a low caste and I have got close Dalit friends and I have a Dalit relative (my cousin married her Dalit classmate). So I can’t agree with you that I have no idea of Dalits. If you think about it, You and Mayawati live in a different universe too.

I beg to differ Ponniyin, having a friend and a cousin marry a dalit is nothing like being one. Not every tribal/dalit is a Mayawati.. she is one of a kind.. and you are right She and I live in different universes. I stand by my assertion you will never know the hell that is a tribals or dalits life. Reading your posts it is clear you cannot even come close.. you say you know or act like you do.. is an insult to the suffering and torment tribals and dalits undergo everyday. Write to me when you have lost family to the hatred that someone put out because of your caste or religious beliefs, write to me when someone spits on your face because he thinks you are a low life and and it gets him brownie points with his crew, write to me you can’t celebrate you main holiday because you fear a drunken mob will start an fight.. then may be you will have a vague idea.

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

I have read that missionaries used to meet every year in India in colonial days (maybe they do it even now) and compare their notes and see how successful they are in harvesting souls. Maybe if we can get the minutes of such meetings we’d have some ideas. It is not just the low castes that have converted into Christianity. They have used different strategies for different castes.

Pooniyin.. this smacks too much like the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion The Hitler and the Nazi’s used it to try and exterminate the Jews in Europe.. the fascists are using it to cleanse india of Christians. There is definitely some sorta ideological connection between the Nazis and Hindu facists.

It’s this relentless propaganda that the hindu right puts out.. the constant never ending lies and hatred.. I’m glad I don’t live there anymore.

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By: Soca Chutney Mix http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/13/communal_violen/comment-page-5/#comment-218639 Soca Chutney Mix Wed, 15 Oct 2008 00:28:21 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5463#comment-218639 <p>I can understand why Kiran feels the way he or she does. It's a personal issue for him/her. I'm a Hindu but not a hater. There is a systematic program for missionaries in India though. There is a language school by the name of Landour in North India that teaches hindi. About half of their students are christians from foreign countries who are sent there to learn hindi in order to preach to hindi speaking people. I asked one young woman what she does and she says we are placed in the homes of the mountain people and we form close bonds with them. When they get to the point of accepting and loving us as one of their own we then ask them to accept Jesus Christ as their eternal saviour and convert to Christianity and by that time they feel so bonded to us that they do. Tricky? Maybe. Evil? No. These people are convinced that if they don't do this then the entire population of (non-christian) Indians will go to hell and it is their compassionate duty to bring them to salvation. They really, really, really believe this. It doesn't bother me. However, when I attended a sermon by one of the students there who was a pastor from the USA and he lambasted Hindu gods and goddesses and called them "demons", well, it was comic relief in what was otherwise a pretty boring day. I had no idea there were still pastors out there like that. I thought by now they were trying to incorporate some philosophical thought into their presentations, what with all the Christian motivational speakers that are out there now. At the end of the day who cares what people believe when it comes to religion? Why do hindus cares that some people are converting to christianity and why do christians care if some ex-hindus are converting back to Hinduism? Why would anyone take offense if a poor family goes back and forth at their own convenience in order to get benefits to feed and educate their kids? What's wrong with that?</p> I can understand why Kiran feels the way he or she does. It’s a personal issue for him/her. I’m a Hindu but not a hater. There is a systematic program for missionaries in India though. There is a language school by the name of Landour in North India that teaches hindi. About half of their students are christians from foreign countries who are sent there to learn hindi in order to preach to hindi speaking people. I asked one young woman what she does and she says we are placed in the homes of the mountain people and we form close bonds with them. When they get to the point of accepting and loving us as one of their own we then ask them to accept Jesus Christ as their eternal saviour and convert to Christianity and by that time they feel so bonded to us that they do. Tricky? Maybe. Evil? No. These people are convinced that if they don’t do this then the entire population of (non-christian) Indians will go to hell and it is their compassionate duty to bring them to salvation. They really, really, really believe this. It doesn’t bother me. However, when I attended a sermon by one of the students there who was a pastor from the USA and he lambasted Hindu gods and goddesses and called them “demons”, well, it was comic relief in what was otherwise a pretty boring day. I had no idea there were still pastors out there like that. I thought by now they were trying to incorporate some philosophical thought into their presentations, what with all the Christian motivational speakers that are out there now. At the end of the day who cares what people believe when it comes to religion? Why do hindus cares that some people are converting to christianity and why do christians care if some ex-hindus are converting back to Hinduism? Why would anyone take offense if a poor family goes back and forth at their own convenience in order to get benefits to feed and educate their kids? What’s wrong with that?

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