Comments on: Trees don’t grow without money? http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Dr Amonymous http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-218462 Dr Amonymous Tue, 14 Oct 2008 03:06:44 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-218462 <p><i>15 · <b><a href="http://www.vinod.com/blog" rel="nofollow">vinod</a></b></p> <blockquote>What if the problem is the reverse? India is so poor with such extreme inequality because <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_%28economist%29#Reforms_in_Peru_and_elsewhere" rel="nofollow">property rights are so ridiculously difficult to maintain and hence everything's in the black market</a>? </blockquote> <p>The one piece missing here is the social structural analysis. In post-independence India, the state has consistently intervened deliberately on behalf of big companies through effective subsidies (like capital industries investments during Nehru or land grabs for SEZs in the post Emergency period) - this is directly tied into the inability of the government to discipline big capital but also to the strength that stronger social classes have over the weakest segments of society in the political order. Hence, property rights are difficult to maintain - because they don't serve the interests of accumulation (in this case, primitive accumulation in the countryside) or those classes. See <a href="http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=442&issue=118">here</a> for one theory that's been applied to describe this process in India. Not sure if I buy it yet.</p> 15 · vinod

What if the problem is the reverse? India is so poor with such extreme inequality because property rights are so ridiculously difficult to maintain and hence everything’s in the black market?

The one piece missing here is the social structural analysis. In post-independence India, the state has consistently intervened deliberately on behalf of big companies through effective subsidies (like capital industries investments during Nehru or land grabs for SEZs in the post Emergency period) – this is directly tied into the inability of the government to discipline big capital but also to the strength that stronger social classes have over the weakest segments of society in the political order. Hence, property rights are difficult to maintain – because they don’t serve the interests of accumulation (in this case, primitive accumulation in the countryside) or those classes. See here for one theory that’s been applied to describe this process in India. Not sure if I buy it yet.

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By: Jing http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-218080 Jing Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:42:57 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-218080 <p>Some people might actually want to actually check the facts before making an idiot of themselves.</p> <p>http://www.mongabay.com/deforestation_pcover.htm</p> <p>Forest coverage according to UN Food and Agricultural Organization as of 2003.</p> <p>India: forest cover 64,113,000 hectares</p> <p>China: 163,380,000 hectares</p> Some people might actually want to actually check the facts before making an idiot of themselves.

http://www.mongabay.com/deforestation_pcover.htm

Forest coverage according to UN Food and Agricultural Organization as of 2003.

India: forest cover 64,113,000 hectares

China: 163,380,000 hectares

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By: Others' wood http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-217989 Others' wood Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:10:28 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-217989 <p><i>17 · <b><a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com">Ennis</a></b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005452.html#comment217927">said</a></i></p> <blockquote><blockquote>The first map is misleading, there is more wood cutting in India than China because India has more wood to cut. China almost doesn't have any, so they are cutting Indonesia's, and also India's.</blockquote> It's wood that's being cut that is not being replaced. Countries not on the map may be cutting more timber, but also replacing more timber as well. </blockquote> <p>Sure, still what I said holds. I was only talking about the comparison between India and China. India has more forest than China, which has almost no forest, so it will show up as not cutting wood. While in reality, it is cutting others' wood, particularly in Indonesia. And also killing others; tigers and rhinos and God knows what else.</p> 17 · Ennis said

The first map is misleading, there is more wood cutting in India than China because India has more wood to cut. China almost doesn’t have any, so they are cutting Indonesia’s, and also India’s.
It’s wood that’s being cut that is not being replaced. Countries not on the map may be cutting more timber, but also replacing more timber as well.

Sure, still what I said holds. I was only talking about the comparison between India and China. India has more forest than China, which has almost no forest, so it will show up as not cutting wood. While in reality, it is cutting others’ wood, particularly in Indonesia. And also killing others; tigers and rhinos and God knows what else.

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By: nidhi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-217956 nidhi Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:05:37 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-217956 <p>global health facts has up to date info on this and many, many other alarming stats: http://www.globalhealthfacts.org/topic.jsp?i=88</p> global health facts has up to date info on this and many, many other alarming stats: http://www.globalhealthfacts.org/topic.jsp?i=88

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By: Ennis http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-217927 Ennis Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:32:21 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-217927 <blockquote>The first map is misleading, there is more wood cutting in India than China because India has more wood to cut. China almost doesn't have any, so they are cutting Indonesia's, and also India's.</blockquote> <p>It's wood that's being cut that is not being replaced. Countries not on the map may be cutting more timber, but also replacing more timber as well.</p> The first map is misleading, there is more wood cutting in India than China because India has more wood to cut. China almost doesn’t have any, so they are cutting Indonesia’s, and also India’s.

It’s wood that’s being cut that is not being replaced. Countries not on the map may be cutting more timber, but also replacing more timber as well.

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By: More wood http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-217924 More wood Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:00:43 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-217924 <blockquote>India is far larger than China on both</blockquote> <p>The first map is misleading, there is more wood cutting in India than China because India has more wood to cut. China almost doesn't have any, so they are cutting Indonesia's, and also India's.</p> India is far larger than China on both

The first map is misleading, there is more wood cutting in India than China because India has more wood to cut. China almost doesn’t have any, so they are cutting Indonesia’s, and also India’s.

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By: vinod http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-217898 vinod Thu, 09 Oct 2008 18:40:30 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-217898 <p><i>14 · <b>indias not shining</b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005452.html#comment217897">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>are strictly defined property rights in a country with such extreme inequality really a good thing </blockquote> <p>What if the problem is the reverse? India is so poor with such extreme inequality because <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_(economist)#Reforms_in_Peru_and_elsewhere">property rights are so ridiculously difficult to maintain and hence everything's in the black market</a>?</p> 14 · indias not shining said

are strictly defined property rights in a country with such extreme inequality really a good thing

What if the problem is the reverse? India is so poor with such extreme inequality because property rights are so ridiculously difficult to maintain and hence everything’s in the black market?

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By: indias not shining http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-217897 indias not shining Thu, 09 Oct 2008 18:36:05 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-217897 <p>are strictly defined property rights in a country with such extreme inequality really a good thing</p> are strictly defined property rights in a country with such extreme inequality really a good thing

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By: vinod http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-217893 vinod Thu, 09 Oct 2008 18:13:20 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-217893 <blockquote>Even libertarians agree that situations with public goods and public bads are when the government must step in.</blockquote> <p>clear property rights delineation is almost always a govt function that libertarians do agree to....</p> Even libertarians agree that situations with public goods and public bads are when the government must step in.

clear property rights delineation is almost always a govt function that libertarians do agree to….

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By: SpottieOttieDopaliscious http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/10/09/trees_dont_grow/comment-page-1/#comment-217879 SpottieOttieDopaliscious Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:45:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5452#comment-217879 <p>If any country needs a green movement for both economic as well as ecological reasons, it's India.</p> <p>It's funny, I read Gandhi's autobiography when I was I was in college expecting him to drop some knowledge on me regarding non-violence and freedom. Instead, he spent most of the book talking about the need for sanitation and equitable distribution of labor and natural resources. I guess the man really was ahead of his time, in more ways than one.</p> If any country needs a green movement for both economic as well as ecological reasons, it’s India.

It’s funny, I read Gandhi’s autobiography when I was I was in college expecting him to drop some knowledge on me regarding non-violence and freedom. Instead, he spent most of the book talking about the need for sanitation and equitable distribution of labor and natural resources. I guess the man really was ahead of his time, in more ways than one.

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