Comments on: Collecting Tinsel http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Sameer http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-213073 Sameer Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:14:12 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-213073 <p>I think most of all it is interest. Even more than resources. Heck there was a news report of Afghan bodybuilding. With hardly any resources they are devoting a lot of time and effort into body building. Google it. It has become a fashion. For them they see it as a part of re-building their country starting with themselves and their bodies. Overall most of the Olympic sports you can find some group of South Asians who have the body to compete if India wants to develop Indian athletes and not do what other countries do and allow non-natives to compete on behalf of their country. Below is the list from the IOC. How many South Asians resources and genetics aside are genuinely interested enough to passionately train for years and compete in the sports below? There needs to be enough of an interest for there to be a large enough group domestically, of which most will never win any medals either at home or abroad. Genetics and resources I don't think are the major problems, though more support and resources could only be a positive change for Indian athletes. It is enough interest in the general population.</p> <p>Summer sports: Aquatics Archery Athletics Badminton Baseball Basketball Boxing Canoe / kayak Cycling Equestrian Fencing Football Gymnastics Handball Hockey Judo Modern pentathlon Rowing Sailing Shooting Softball Table tennis Taekwondo Tennis Triathlon Volleyball Weightlifting Wrestling</p> I think most of all it is interest. Even more than resources. Heck there was a news report of Afghan bodybuilding. With hardly any resources they are devoting a lot of time and effort into body building. Google it. It has become a fashion. For them they see it as a part of re-building their country starting with themselves and their bodies. Overall most of the Olympic sports you can find some group of South Asians who have the body to compete if India wants to develop Indian athletes and not do what other countries do and allow non-natives to compete on behalf of their country. Below is the list from the IOC. How many South Asians resources and genetics aside are genuinely interested enough to passionately train for years and compete in the sports below? There needs to be enough of an interest for there to be a large enough group domestically, of which most will never win any medals either at home or abroad. Genetics and resources I don’t think are the major problems, though more support and resources could only be a positive change for Indian athletes. It is enough interest in the general population.

Summer sports: Aquatics Archery Athletics Badminton Baseball Basketball Boxing Canoe / kayak Cycling Equestrian Fencing Football Gymnastics Handball Hockey Judo Modern pentathlon Rowing Sailing Shooting Softball Table tennis Taekwondo Tennis Triathlon Volleyball Weightlifting Wrestling

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By: Ennis http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-213060 Ennis Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:53:41 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-213060 <blockquote>For whatever myriad reasons, (existence of advanced civilization for several millenia, lack of strong need to hunt and gather) the various gene pools of the Indian subcontinent lack "athletic" genes. This could be characterized by lack of certain anatomical characteristics (height, muscle tone and build, ratio of fast twitch muscle fibers to slow twitch muscle fibers etc).</blockquote> <p>Yet the subcontinent has one of the most diverse genetic pools around, and a history of centuries of warfare. Contrast that to China which is far more homogeneous and was at peace for far longer stretches of time. The genetic argument just doesn't make sense. Even if you were right, out of over a billion people there should be the handful who are good at sports, just by chance alone, no matter what the mean tendency is.</p> For whatever myriad reasons, (existence of advanced civilization for several millenia, lack of strong need to hunt and gather) the various gene pools of the Indian subcontinent lack “athletic” genes. This could be characterized by lack of certain anatomical characteristics (height, muscle tone and build, ratio of fast twitch muscle fibers to slow twitch muscle fibers etc).

Yet the subcontinent has one of the most diverse genetic pools around, and a history of centuries of warfare. Contrast that to China which is far more homogeneous and was at peace for far longer stretches of time. The genetic argument just doesn’t make sense. Even if you were right, out of over a billion people there should be the handful who are good at sports, just by chance alone, no matter what the mean tendency is.

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By: kray28 http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-213056 kray28 Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:14:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-213056 <p>The reason is pretty simple to me....genetics.</p> <p>For whatever myriad reasons, (existence of advanced civilization for several millenia, lack of strong need to hunt and gather) the various gene pools of the Indian subcontinent lack "athletic" genes. This could be characterized by lack of certain anatomical characteristics (height, muscle tone and build, ratio of fast twitch muscle fibers to slow twitch muscle fibers etc).</p> The reason is pretty simple to me….genetics.

For whatever myriad reasons, (existence of advanced civilization for several millenia, lack of strong need to hunt and gather) the various gene pools of the Indian subcontinent lack “athletic” genes. This could be characterized by lack of certain anatomical characteristics (height, muscle tone and build, ratio of fast twitch muscle fibers to slow twitch muscle fibers etc).

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By: dipanjan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-212954 dipanjan Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:49:54 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-212954 <p>Because Milkha says so :)</p> <blockquote><i>We have the very best facilities in India now</i>. But what is lacking is the passion that drove people like me. We wanted to achieve glory for the country. These days many athletes are looking to take the short route to fame. Drug use has become rampant. They are not willing to train, put in the hard yards. And then there is cricket, which is weaning away youngsters from other sports, athletics included ... I ran in the hills. I ran along the metre-gauge tracks in Secunderabad, pitting myself against the trains that raced across these tracks. Sand training I did by running along the banks of Yamuna. All this happened under Havildar Gurdev Singh's guidance. It was done on bare feet since we did not have spikes in India during those days.</blockquote> <p>[<a href="http://sify.com/sports/fullstory.php?id=14736598&cid=14568983&page=4">link</a>]</p> <p>A little exaggerated and focuses on passion and nationalism instead of cold hard risk-reward analysis, but there's some truth in it. Argument from authority aside, if you track the career of athletes like Milkha Singh, Sriram Singh, G S Randhawa, two constants were army and NIS (Patiala) and those two are powerful institutions even today. Surendra Singh, who only a couple of months ago broke 16-year old national record of Bahadur Prasad in 3000m, is from Garwhal Rifles. I have no inside knowledge, but it is difficult to imagine that Indian army and post-SAI NIS have fewer resources and worse facilities today than they had 20-30 years ago. Performances overall have been very underwhelming though. A lot of the old records are still standing and the improvements in the ones that have been broken are marginal.</p> <p>Incentives matter. With economic growth, for the "effective" Indian population, the opportunity costs of dedication to Olympic sports -- in reality, any sports except Cricket, and perhaps Golf and Tennis -- have increased significantly, which is not a bad thing at all. The rewards in terms of marketing potential have not caught up yet, but they will.</p> Because Milkha says so :)

We have the very best facilities in India now. But what is lacking is the passion that drove people like me. We wanted to achieve glory for the country. These days many athletes are looking to take the short route to fame. Drug use has become rampant. They are not willing to train, put in the hard yards. And then there is cricket, which is weaning away youngsters from other sports, athletics included … I ran in the hills. I ran along the metre-gauge tracks in Secunderabad, pitting myself against the trains that raced across these tracks. Sand training I did by running along the banks of Yamuna. All this happened under Havildar Gurdev Singh’s guidance. It was done on bare feet since we did not have spikes in India during those days.

[link]

A little exaggerated and focuses on passion and nationalism instead of cold hard risk-reward analysis, but there’s some truth in it. Argument from authority aside, if you track the career of athletes like Milkha Singh, Sriram Singh, G S Randhawa, two constants were army and NIS (Patiala) and those two are powerful institutions even today. Surendra Singh, who only a couple of months ago broke 16-year old national record of Bahadur Prasad in 3000m, is from Garwhal Rifles. I have no inside knowledge, but it is difficult to imagine that Indian army and post-SAI NIS have fewer resources and worse facilities today than they had 20-30 years ago. Performances overall have been very underwhelming though. A lot of the old records are still standing and the improvements in the ones that have been broken are marginal.

Incentives matter. With economic growth, for the “effective” Indian population, the opportunity costs of dedication to Olympic sports — in reality, any sports except Cricket, and perhaps Golf and Tennis — have increased significantly, which is not a bad thing at all. The rewards in terms of marketing potential have not caught up yet, but they will.

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By: Ennis http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-212893 Ennis Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:03:00 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-212893 <blockquote>It is hard to argue that infrastructure has worsened since those days.</blockquote> <p>Why? Many things in Indian education have worsened since the 1970s.</p> It is hard to argue that infrastructure has worsened since those days.

Why? Many things in Indian education have worsened since the 1970s.

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By: dipanjan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-212870 dipanjan Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:10:41 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-212870 <blockquote>say a school kid who ran close to even 10.2 seconds in the 100m would definitely be noticed</blockquote> <p>Definitely since 10.2s would be a new national record. [<a href="http://www.indianathletics.org/records/sr-indianrecords.htm">link</a>] What stands out the most in that list is how old some of those records are -- 800m (1976), Pole Vault (1987), 500m (1992), 3000m steeplechase (1981), Javelin (1998), Marathon (1978). It is hard to argue that infrastructure has worsened since those days.</p> say a school kid who ran close to even 10.2 seconds in the 100m would definitely be noticed

Definitely since 10.2s would be a new national record. [link] What stands out the most in that list is how old some of those records are — 800m (1976), Pole Vault (1987), 500m (1992), 3000m steeplechase (1981), Javelin (1998), Marathon (1978). It is hard to argue that infrastructure has worsened since those days.

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By: ShallowThinker http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-212854 ShallowThinker Tue, 19 Aug 2008 03:49:33 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-212854 <p>I think making arguements based on genetics is a huge cop out. An exceptional athlete works just as hard on his/her craft as a doctor does on his.</p> I think making arguements based on genetics is a huge cop out. An exceptional athlete works just as hard on his/her craft as a doctor does on his.

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By: sn http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-212851 sn Tue, 19 Aug 2008 03:09:00 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-212851 <p>India actually has a pretty decent sports infrastructure, compared to Pakistan and Bangladesh; a world class athlete (say a school kid who ran close to even 10.2 seconds in the 100m would definitely be noticed); but no such athletes have been forthcoming. In the 2006 Asian Games, India's medal tally was 51, much less than China (294), Korea (181), or Japan(191). On a per capita basis, Pakistan (3) and Bangladesh (1) are much lower and are far behind India (it is possible!). The problem is that being somewhat competitive in the Asian Games (with a lot of scope for improvement)does not translate into olympics medals. It is far more realistic to target the Asian Games and say improve to (around) 100 medals and this should translate into a few more medals (maybe less than 10 total) at the Olympics. Events in which Indians are competitive or have been in the past (middle distance running, boxing, wrestling, shooting, racket sports)or really obscure sports that are less competitive (example: many womens events are less competitive, china does exceedingly well in women's events). China has used pretty extreme methods (genetically breeding a Yao Ming by getting the tallest chinese national basketballers to marry each other) and assigning people to sports based on hard data and even using drugs in the 90s that boosted the performance of their women runners. The results reflect that and one has to give the Chinese credit for the effectiveness of their methods.</p> India actually has a pretty decent sports infrastructure, compared to Pakistan and Bangladesh; a world class athlete (say a school kid who ran close to even 10.2 seconds in the 100m would definitely be noticed); but no such athletes have been forthcoming. In the 2006 Asian Games, India’s medal tally was 51, much less than China (294), Korea (181), or Japan(191). On a per capita basis, Pakistan (3) and Bangladesh (1) are much lower and are far behind India (it is possible!). The problem is that being somewhat competitive in the Asian Games (with a lot of scope for improvement)does not translate into olympics medals. It is far more realistic to target the Asian Games and say improve to (around) 100 medals and this should translate into a few more medals (maybe less than 10 total) at the Olympics. Events in which Indians are competitive or have been in the past (middle distance running, boxing, wrestling, shooting, racket sports)or really obscure sports that are less competitive (example: many womens events are less competitive, china does exceedingly well in women’s events). China has used pretty extreme methods (genetically breeding a Yao Ming by getting the tallest chinese national basketballers to marry each other) and assigning people to sports based on hard data and even using drugs in the 90s that boosted the performance of their women runners. The results reflect that and one has to give the Chinese credit for the effectiveness of their methods.

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By: SM Intern http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-212829 SM Intern Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:21:49 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-212829 <p>Cool it, you guys. Keep the discussion focused on the Olympics, that way you can work through your positions. This sort of broad argument moves quickly into hurt feelings and name calling. You've both got important points, why don't you make them concretely and constructively?</p> Cool it, you guys. Keep the discussion focused on the Olympics, that way you can work through your positions. This sort of broad argument moves quickly into hurt feelings and name calling. You’ve both got important points, why don’t you make them concretely and constructively?

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By: Shazam http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/08/17/collecting_tins/comment-page-1/#comment-212824 Shazam Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:50:31 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5348#comment-212824 <blockquote>Even the least "literate" parts of India are better off than Congo and Rwanda. </blockquote> <p>You really think hungry people are "better off" than those who have more to eat?</p> <blockquote>Our ancestors also advocated a vigoorous phyical lifestyle and defence of our material possession till some deluded peaceniks like Siddhartha Gautama came on the scene and advocated ahimsa and "lie back and play dead". </blockquote> <p>Repeating the same lies ad nauseam will not make it true. Buddhism certainly did not weaken or impoverish nations like Japan and Thailand. India was overrun by invaders <b>after</b> brahminism had replaced buddhism as the majority religion. Blame brahminism for India's defeats.</p> <blockquote>An Ashoka who by all rights should have gone on to build an empire instead became a weak-kneed bleeding heart liberal! </blockquote> <p>Asoka did build an empire. There is a reason why historians consider him Ashoka the Great. Besides his large kingdom in the subcontinent he laid the foundation of an Empire of the Spirit that covered most of the world's population.</p> <blockquote>India assembled the world's largest volunteer army during WW2 - over 2 million. You shd get your facts right before you jump the sharrk</blockquote> <p>So much pride in serving as cannon fodder in the wars of a foreign colonial master who treated Indians like dirt. How pathetic is that?</p> Even the least “literate” parts of India are better off than Congo and Rwanda.

You really think hungry people are “better off” than those who have more to eat?

Our ancestors also advocated a vigoorous phyical lifestyle and defence of our material possession till some deluded peaceniks like Siddhartha Gautama came on the scene and advocated ahimsa and “lie back and play dead”.

Repeating the same lies ad nauseam will not make it true. Buddhism certainly did not weaken or impoverish nations like Japan and Thailand. India was overrun by invaders after brahminism had replaced buddhism as the majority religion. Blame brahminism for India’s defeats.

An Ashoka who by all rights should have gone on to build an empire instead became a weak-kneed bleeding heart liberal!

Asoka did build an empire. There is a reason why historians consider him Ashoka the Great. Besides his large kingdom in the subcontinent he laid the foundation of an Empire of the Spirit that covered most of the world’s population.

India assembled the world’s largest volunteer army during WW2 – over 2 million. You shd get your facts right before you jump the sharrk

So much pride in serving as cannon fodder in the wars of a foreign colonial master who treated Indians like dirt. How pathetic is that?

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