Ahh but it’s hard to articulate the platform for a broader set of ethical values when you use the word ‘stolen’

Fair enough. I am not entirely convinced of the ethical concept of property rights as applied to animals either, myself, just interpreting what the other commenter must have meant I have no idea why the discussion turned to vegetarianism (“What Would Janardhan Devour?”), but figured I’d share my personal experience: I was “Indian vegetarian” (vegetarian, milk and eggs) as a child, but started eating meat and seafood about 10-12 years ago. I turned vegetarian about 4 years ago, mainly convinced by Peter Singer’s Animal Liberation and his vivid descriptions of factory farming of livestock, poultry and fish, the use of animals for cosmetics and often gratuitous scientific testing, and by the human-centric argument that a vegetarian diet is more environmentally efficient, and can feed more people. While this was manageable for me on the one hand, since I was originally vegetarian, I did miss several meat dishes that I really enjoyed. I have managed to stay vegetarian ever since, despite the fact that Brazilian barbeque is now off limits to me for life, except for a couple of instances where I was too tempted by some delicious salmon. I tried going vegan briefly but was unable to sustain it, since I cook quite infrequently and it is difficult to stay vegan purely on restaurant food. I have to say, though, that there are few things more annoying than sanctimonious vegetarians and vegans, so I don’t generally bring up the topic.

Usually non veggies, especially doctors, tell u how much better off they are, with boring details of their anatomy. I am healthy, haven’t taken vitamins/supplements for 25 years. (Is this anti-American?)I remain mostly vegan (and silent) because I have no wish to inflict pain on any creature or listening human. The idea that I should eat something like fish because ‘it is good for u’ is irrelevant to me. My well-being is not paramount, not at any cost. Yes, I do use leather,or related products simply because I don’t wish to struggle all the time. But where possible I would certainly opt for the vegan object.

please — don’t start defending non-veg uncle.

Ok, this was an awful sentence. I think Singer has said that he doesn’t consider inter-species sex “normal” (whatever that means), only that he doesn’t view zoophilia as contradictory to the special status of humans, because humans are just great apes.

Singer’s arguments are not grounded in zoophilia at all.

didn’t think so in the least. In college I often felt contempt for people who became veg only after taking sociology 101 (as a from-birth lacto-veg) but I’ve learned, from numerous viewings of Vampire movies, that those borne to the blood, and those turned after a more conventional life, are equal nonetheless.

As portmanteau mentioned, his zoophilia is not the origin of his arguments for ethical treatment of animals. His Animal Liberation, while explicitly making utilitarian and sentience arguments, also details the awful practices prevalent in factory farming, cosmetics testing, and scientific research, which should give any reasonable person pause about being complicit in these cruelties. Also, I think Singer was one of the earliest people to make people aware of these issues, and it is a bandwagon a lot of people have jumped on since. Personally, anything that makes people aware of all of the reasons factory farming is abhorrent is a good thing in my book, in any case.

As for zoophilia, that’s a discussion for another time, when I don’t have pressing deadlines

When I said there was no economical wastage, I was trying to be rhetorical. Of course when you mix milk with sandal wood paste the mixture becomes inedible. But what I was looking for was a retort which quantifies the impact of Abhishekam on the price of milk or at least how much milk is wasted on rituals compared to what is consumed. Apparently there is none. Then why do people advocate such things without data? and more importantly why is it assumed that this wastage has an impact on the poor people. This assumption is obvious when the wapost article talks about how the poor have stopped drinking milk because of price increases while those who can afford still perform abhishekam.

The second point was more about challenging the economic origin of prohibition of beef consumption by Hindus (which the blog mentioned in passing). Will elaborate about this if some one is willing to debate this further..

is this the same Peter Singer of supposed zoophilia support fame?

It is — actually Singer’s account based on sentience, capacity to experience pleasure and pain, intelligence (all human like traits) is quite persuasive, and strongly grounded in the tradition of arguments for why humans deserve rights. Singer’s arguments are not grounded in zoophilia at all.

Rahul,

is this the same Peter Singer of supposed zoophilia support fame? i.e. (does not constitute a transgression of our status as human beings). I’d argue Fearnley-Whittingstall’s accounts of the nuts and bolts of factory farming would prove a more forceful argument to bitter supermarket shoppers than Singer’s kibbles n’ bits (sorry, had to do it).

did you guys have a moolavar in your home shrine or something or how many abhishekams could your parents possibly have performed to be using vast quantities of sugar, honey, rice etc?

I grew up in a fairly religious south indian household, and I can’t recall wasting these ingredients. The only thing that comes to mind is the turmeric colored rice used for varalakshmi vratham and even then it was like a handful. All the sugar and honey and rice was pretty much used for making sweets for the naivedhyam, which we ate later.

Abhishekams traditionally aren’t usually done on a daily or twice daily basis-I think there is an acknowledgment that one requires a lot of resources. For example, in Tirumala, the main deity is only bathed on Friday, while the tiny bhoga murti is used on a daily basis-this is done to avoid having to perform the ritual to the main moolavar.

For those of us who view the abhishekam as more than just “pouring milk over an idol” its a really beautiful ritual-I hope they don’t do away with it, I just hope that temples might tone down the amount of times they’re performing it, or cut back on how much milk is used especially given the current situation.

“To the first point, I already mentioned that there is no economic wastage and hence no impact on milk prices.”

In theory, its supposed to be collected-but usually its not.