Comments on: Conquest, Culture, and India http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Valmiki http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-206873 Valmiki Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:45:37 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-206873 <p>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7460682.stm#map</p> <p>"Leading Indian writer Amitav Ghosh's critically acclaimed new novel Sea of Poppies is set during a time when opium trade out of India was flourishing during British rule.</p> <p>I had no idea that India was the largest opium exporter for centuries. I had no idea that opium was essentially the commodity which financed the British Raj in India. It is not a coincidence that 20 years after the opium trade stopped, the Raj more or less packed up its bags and left. India was not a paying proposition any longer.</p> <p>Opium steadily accounted for about 17-20% of Indian revenues. If you think in those terms, [the fact that] one single commodity accounted for such an enormous part of your economy is unbelievable, extraordinary.</p> <p>The idea of exporting opium to China started with Warren Hastings (the first governor general of British India) in 1780. The situation was eerily similar to [what is happening] today. There was a huge balance of payments problem in relation to China. China was exporting enormous amounts, but wasn't interested in importing any European goods. That was when Hastings came up with idea that the only way of balancing trade was to export opium to China.</p> <p>Opium was the fundamental undergirding of our economy for centuries. It is strange that [even] for someone like me who studied history and knew a fair amount about Indian history, I was completely unaware of it.</p> <p>It's such an ironic thing. Before the British came, India was one of the world's great economies. For 200 years India dwindled and dwindled into almost nothing. Fifty years after they left we have finally begun to reclaim our place in the world. All the empirical facts show you that British rule was a disaster for India. Before the British came 25% of the world trade originated in India. By the time they left it was less than 1%."</p> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7460682.stm#map

“Leading Indian writer Amitav Ghosh’s critically acclaimed new novel Sea of Poppies is set during a time when opium trade out of India was flourishing during British rule.

I had no idea that India was the largest opium exporter for centuries. I had no idea that opium was essentially the commodity which financed the British Raj in India. It is not a coincidence that 20 years after the opium trade stopped, the Raj more or less packed up its bags and left. India was not a paying proposition any longer.

Opium steadily accounted for about 17-20% of Indian revenues. If you think in those terms, [the fact that] one single commodity accounted for such an enormous part of your economy is unbelievable, extraordinary.

The idea of exporting opium to China started with Warren Hastings (the first governor general of British India) in 1780. The situation was eerily similar to [what is happening] today. There was a huge balance of payments problem in relation to China. China was exporting enormous amounts, but wasn’t interested in importing any European goods. That was when Hastings came up with idea that the only way of balancing trade was to export opium to China.

Opium was the fundamental undergirding of our economy for centuries. It is strange that [even] for someone like me who studied history and knew a fair amount about Indian history, I was completely unaware of it.

It’s such an ironic thing. Before the British came, India was one of the world’s great economies. For 200 years India dwindled and dwindled into almost nothing. Fifty years after they left we have finally begun to reclaim our place in the world. All the empirical facts show you that British rule was a disaster for India. Before the British came 25% of the world trade originated in India. By the time they left it was less than 1%.”

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By: portmanteau http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-202609 portmanteau Thu, 08 May 2008 03:27:55 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-202609 <p>Razib, I just started reading <i>Power and Plenty: Trade, War, and the World Economy in the Second Millennium.</i> If the introduction is anything to go by (really thoughtful and succinct survey of scholarship, and a nice note on how economic historians approach international trade differently than your vanilla economists), this book appears quite promising. I am so excited! Just wanted to gush.</p> Razib, I just started reading Power and Plenty: Trade, War, and the World Economy in the Second Millennium. If the introduction is anything to go by (really thoughtful and succinct survey of scholarship, and a nice note on how economic historians approach international trade differently than your vanilla economists), this book appears quite promising. I am so excited! Just wanted to gush.

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By: Blog_Prowler http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-201954 Blog_Prowler Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:17:10 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-201954 <p>Vyasa said :</p> <blockquote>And the worst off states in India are the ones which were among the longest ruled by the British: Bengal, Bihar, Orissa etc.</blockquote> <p>I grew up in Bihar, and I went to IIT Kharagpur in West Bengal.</p> <p>Bihar is chock full of natural resources, coal, iron-ore etc. But its major stumbling block in those days was caste-ism. The kayasth would block the brahmin, the khatri would block the kayasth etc. Today most of where I grew up is called "Jharkhand" but its now between adivasis and everyone else.</p> <p>West Bengal had the best education system in Northern India. In fact the IIT entrance exam was modeled after the Bengal H.S. But its problems began with the economic and social devastation that followed the Naxalbari movement which caused industry to leave en-mass for places like Faridabad and Bangalore.</p> <p>It doesn't have anything to do with the British. It has to do with demagogues who promise anger as an antidote to all problems.</p> Vyasa said :

And the worst off states in India are the ones which were among the longest ruled by the British: Bengal, Bihar, Orissa etc.

I grew up in Bihar, and I went to IIT Kharagpur in West Bengal.

Bihar is chock full of natural resources, coal, iron-ore etc. But its major stumbling block in those days was caste-ism. The kayasth would block the brahmin, the khatri would block the kayasth etc. Today most of where I grew up is called “Jharkhand” but its now between adivasis and everyone else.

West Bengal had the best education system in Northern India. In fact the IIT entrance exam was modeled after the Bengal H.S. But its problems began with the economic and social devastation that followed the Naxalbari movement which caused industry to leave en-mass for places like Faridabad and Bangalore.

It doesn’t have anything to do with the British. It has to do with demagogues who promise anger as an antidote to all problems.

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By: amaun http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-201936 amaun Wed, 30 Apr 2008 20:16:08 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-201936 <p><i>On what grounds does Sowell imagine that this applies to human history?</i></p> <p>War -- Peace -- War -- Peace ... War brings about not just abrupt cultural change but, technological change.</p> On what grounds does Sowell imagine that this applies to human history?

War — Peace — War — Peace … War brings about not just abrupt cultural change but, technological change.

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By: my_dog_jagat http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-201655 my_dog_jagat Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:48:18 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-201655 <p>Razib #29 asked:</p> <blockquote>what other books would people recommend in this vein?</blockquote> <p><a href="http://www.boundtogether-globalization.com/">Bound Together</a></p> <p>I haven't read it but<a href="http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2008/04/neither-flat-nor-round-but-bound.html"> here </a>is Siddharth Varadarajan's review.</p> Razib #29 asked:

what other books would people recommend in this vein?

Bound Together

I haven’t read it but here is Siddharth Varadarajan’s review.

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By: jyotsana http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-201506 jyotsana Mon, 28 Apr 2008 06:02:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-201506 <p>It takes ignorance of a very high order to apply the understanding of a phenomenon in biology - punctuated equilibria - to human societies. There are so many hings wrong with this, but a few will suffice to show how casual Sowell is about his arguments. PE builds on a wealth of theories and mechanisms uncovered in biology - genetics, biochemistry, systematics, ecology etc., to say that evolution is marked by long periods of stasis punctuated by short bursts of change. In evolutionary terms a burst lasts a few million years while stasis could be of the order of 10s or even 100s of milions of years. On what grounds does Sowell imagine that this applies to human history?</p> It takes ignorance of a very high order to apply the understanding of a phenomenon in biology – punctuated equilibria – to human societies. There are so many hings wrong with this, but a few will suffice to show how casual Sowell is about his arguments. PE builds on a wealth of theories and mechanisms uncovered in biology – genetics, biochemistry, systematics, ecology etc., to say that evolution is marked by long periods of stasis punctuated by short bursts of change. In evolutionary terms a burst lasts a few million years while stasis could be of the order of 10s or even 100s of milions of years. On what grounds does Sowell imagine that this applies to human history?

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By: bunty http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-201464 bunty Sun, 27 Apr 2008 19:45:35 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-201464 <p>This book seems all bakwas. Even within british india, there is a correlation between the length of time an area was part of the Empire and how poor it currently is. The longer they ruled it, the poorer it is. And the telengana example seems to suggest he may be pulling stats out of thin air.</p> This book seems all bakwas. Even within british india, there is a correlation between the length of time an area was part of the Empire and how poor it currently is. The longer they ruled it, the poorer it is. And the telengana example seems to suggest he may be pulling stats out of thin air.

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By: portmanteau http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-201443 portmanteau Sun, 27 Apr 2008 05:15:45 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-201443 <p><i>49 · <b>Rahul</b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005159.html#comment201414">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>Thomas Sowell. clarence Thomas. i think we know wot their sister's sons will call them...</blockquote> <p>:)</p> 49 · Rahul said

Thomas Sowell. clarence Thomas. i think we know wot their sister’s sons will call them…

:)

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By: Rahul S http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-201420 Rahul S Sun, 27 Apr 2008 02:03:50 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-201420 <p><i>51 · <b><a href="mailto:ag1055@nyu.edu" rel="nofollow">NYC Akshay</a></b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005159.html#comment201419">said</a></i></p> <blockquote><i>50 · <b><a href="http://hester23.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Rahul S</a></b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005159.html#comment201417" rel="nofollow">said</a></i> <blockquote>You should read his other stuff though. He has pretty interesting books. Too bad African Americans & the left doesn't listen to this guy or Michael Steele.</blockquote> Pray tell, what might all those African Americans gain by listening to Sowell? </blockquote> <p>Well, it will tell African Americans to stop blaming racism, and stop producing kids out of wedlock. I stated this before, but in 1940, 9/10 blacks had jobs (when racism existed). Now, blacks aren't employed to the extent they used to (when racism has cooled off to a certain extent). Stay committed to the family (unlike the situation right now, where many African American families seem to be in a mess). Essentially, blacks should vote for their original (Abe Lincoln) party, the Republican Party. Ever since the 60's, government dependency (due to LBJ..even though his intentions were good) has hurt the black community since anything else. As you can, the repercussions are still present; slavery isn't the problem, Jim Crow isn't...it's simply government dependency.</p> 51 · NYC Akshay said

50 · Rahul S said
You should read his other stuff though. He has pretty interesting books. Too bad African Americans & the left doesn’t listen to this guy or Michael Steele.
Pray tell, what might all those African Americans gain by listening to Sowell?

Well, it will tell African Americans to stop blaming racism, and stop producing kids out of wedlock. I stated this before, but in 1940, 9/10 blacks had jobs (when racism existed). Now, blacks aren’t employed to the extent they used to (when racism has cooled off to a certain extent). Stay committed to the family (unlike the situation right now, where many African American families seem to be in a mess). Essentially, blacks should vote for their original (Abe Lincoln) party, the Republican Party. Ever since the 60′s, government dependency (due to LBJ..even though his intentions were good) has hurt the black community since anything else. As you can, the repercussions are still present; slavery isn’t the problem, Jim Crow isn’t…it’s simply government dependency.

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By: NYC Akshay http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/04/24/conquest_cultur/comment-page-2/#comment-201419 NYC Akshay Sun, 27 Apr 2008 01:52:27 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5159#comment-201419 <p><i>50 · <b><a href="http://hester23.blogspot.com">Rahul S</a></b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005159.html#comment201417">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>You should read his other stuff though. He has pretty interesting books. Too bad African Americans & the left doesn't listen to this guy or Michael Steele.</blockquote> <p>Pray tell, what might all those African Americans gain by listening to Sowell?</p> 50 · Rahul S said

You should read his other stuff though. He has pretty interesting books. Too bad African Americans & the left doesn’t listen to this guy or Michael Steele.

Pray tell, what might all those African Americans gain by listening to Sowell?

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