Comments on: In Defense of a Dictator – Pt II http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: MSc http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-2/#comment-211520 MSc Thu, 07 Aug 2008 01:12:22 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-211520 <p>Well, if the new guy coming in is as bad as the one Mushy replaced, Pakistan will at the tíme it discovers this fact at least have a new, unused so to say, Chief of Staff, who will probably find some doctrine document somewhere in his office on how to proceed with proven methods...</p> Well, if the new guy coming in is as bad as the one Mushy replaced, Pakistan will at the tíme it discovers this fact at least have a new, unused so to say, Chief of Staff, who will probably find some doctrine document somewhere in his office on how to proceed with proven methods…

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By: Violet_in_Twilight http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-198143 Violet_in_Twilight Fri, 28 Mar 2008 06:53:02 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-198143 <p><i>17 · <B>Mark</B> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005109.html#comment197941">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>In the west talented individuals rise through political parties to become leaders.</blockquote> <p>Reminds me W. and Hill C. He-he.</p> 17 · Mark said

In the west talented individuals rise through political parties to become leaders.

Reminds me W. and Hill C. He-he.

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By: Abhi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-198039 Abhi Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:09:28 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-198039 <blockquote>I happily indulge in Paki bashing especially over Cricket and Kashmir but for persons who live in a democracy to demand that others not be granted that same option is to say that the Pakis are a bunch of uncivilised savages.</blockquote> <p>Please get a grip. It is intellectually lazy to accuse Vinod of what you are accusing him of. Don't make an insulting statement and then say "that's what he is saying." Geez, I'm so tired of the lazy comments of people who disagree with this post.</p> I happily indulge in Paki bashing especially over Cricket and Kashmir but for persons who live in a democracy to demand that others not be granted that same option is to say that the Pakis are a bunch of uncivilised savages.

Please get a grip. It is intellectually lazy to accuse Vinod of what you are accusing him of. Don’t make an insulting statement and then say “that’s what he is saying.” Geez, I’m so tired of the lazy comments of people who disagree with this post.

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By: melbourne desi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-198038 melbourne desi Thu, 27 Mar 2008 03:29:21 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-198038 <p>Here we go again. Quite often disagree with positions that SM and the commenters even unpopular ones. But this position probably is the one that really gets to me. The very headline is deeply offensive. I happily indulge in Paki bashing especially over Cricket and Kashmir but for persons who live in a democracy to demand that others not be granted that same option is to say that the Pakis are a bunch of uncivilised savages. Replace Pakistan with South Africa and bingo- justification for apartheid.</p> <blockquote>But, as Caute remarks, these intellectuals would not, of course, trade their own life in a free country for life under the boot.</blockquote> <p>Am an admirer of Vinod and his work but an intellectual is not a compliment that I would pay him. But, I would agree that most of us who live in relative freedom and comfort would not choose to live in Pakistan.</p> <p>Rule of law are laws written by the people or by duly elected representatives of the people. Rules imposed on from above is not a law - it is an arbitary misuse of wrongfully appropriated power.</p> Here we go again. Quite often disagree with positions that SM and the commenters even unpopular ones. But this position probably is the one that really gets to me. The very headline is deeply offensive. I happily indulge in Paki bashing especially over Cricket and Kashmir but for persons who live in a democracy to demand that others not be granted that same option is to say that the Pakis are a bunch of uncivilised savages. Replace Pakistan with South Africa and bingo- justification for apartheid.

But, as Caute remarks, these intellectuals would not, of course, trade their own life in a free country for life under the boot.

Am an admirer of Vinod and his work but an intellectual is not a compliment that I would pay him. But, I would agree that most of us who live in relative freedom and comfort would not choose to live in Pakistan.

Rule of law are laws written by the people or by duly elected representatives of the people. Rules imposed on from above is not a law – it is an arbitary misuse of wrongfully appropriated power.

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By: jujung http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-198015 jujung Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:21:41 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-198015 <p>Guha's article in the context of intellectuals' admiration for dictatorships might be relevant here: http://www.hvk.org/articles/0900/52.html Excerpt: "But, as Caute remarks, these intellectuals would not, of course, trade their own life in a free country for life under the boot. His explanation of this paradox was two-fold. On the one hand, these men practised an unconscious racism: they believed the British needed democracy, but not the backward Georgians or Chinese. On the other hand, they displayed the intellectual’s endemic love of power."</p> Guha’s article in the context of intellectuals’ admiration for dictatorships might be relevant here: http://www.hvk.org/articles/0900/52.html Excerpt: “But, as Caute remarks, these intellectuals would not, of course, trade their own life in a free country for life under the boot. His explanation of this paradox was two-fold. On the one hand, these men practised an unconscious racism: they believed the British needed democracy, but not the backward Georgians or Chinese. On the other hand, they displayed the intellectual’s endemic love of power.”

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By: Marl Balou http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-198013 Marl Balou Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:39:54 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-198013 <p>Vinod, I do believe that there is merit to your arguments. Historically both democratic govt & earlier dictatorships have shown to be ineffective. At least Mush has moved the ball forward on two of the three axes. I do believe that in order for democracy to function and move the “ball forward” (<i>maybe not in a straight line</i>), Pakistan has to build up good strong institutions (<i>that is sorely lacking today</i>). Maybe this democratic govt will be different but I am not holding my breath.</p> Vinod, I do believe that there is merit to your arguments. Historically both democratic govt & earlier dictatorships have shown to be ineffective. At least Mush has moved the ball forward on two of the three axes. I do believe that in order for democracy to function and move the “ball forward” (maybe not in a straight line), Pakistan has to build up good strong institutions (that is sorely lacking today). Maybe this democratic govt will be different but I am not holding my breath.

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By: redr http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-198012 redr Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:30:16 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-198012 <p><i>42 · <B>Yogi</B> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005109.html#comment197990">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>It is a haven for terrorists, involved in nuclear proliferation (see Khan A Q)and last time I checked it was no capitalist mecca like Singapore.</blockquote> <p>Uh, the nuclear proliferation of the Khan network took place between 1989 and 2000, under Bhutto, Sharif, etc. As far as we know (and to be fair, there may well be plenty we don't know), the proliferation stopped around the same time Musharraf came to power. That Khan was exposed and punished under Musharraf is, if anything, a recommendation of him over his predecessors, under whose watch all of the proliferation occurred.</p> <p>And it's not exactly like Pakistan didn't have terrorist problems before Musharraf either...</p> 42 · Yogi said

It is a haven for terrorists, involved in nuclear proliferation (see Khan A Q)and last time I checked it was no capitalist mecca like Singapore.

Uh, the nuclear proliferation of the Khan network took place between 1989 and 2000, under Bhutto, Sharif, etc. As far as we know (and to be fair, there may well be plenty we don’t know), the proliferation stopped around the same time Musharraf came to power. That Khan was exposed and punished under Musharraf is, if anything, a recommendation of him over his predecessors, under whose watch all of the proliferation occurred.

And it’s not exactly like Pakistan didn’t have terrorist problems before Musharraf either…

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By: jyotsana http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-197997 jyotsana Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:51:28 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-197997 <p><i>11 · <b>Bridget Jones</b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005109.html#comment197927">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>The way I see it is that there are four power centers - (a) feudal, rich zamindars (b) military-intelligence agency bloc (c) islamists-radicals...</blockquote> <p>Of these three <i>(a) feudal, rich zamindars and the (b) military-intelligence agency bloc</i> are variants of the third the <i>(c) islamists-radicals</i>. The feudals are the creators and sustainers of the muslims-as-a-nation; while the military is a late entrant to the game, seeking to sustain an Islamic super-state with Pakistan in some sort of leadership role. The last - <i>(c) islamists-radicals</i> - all but reject the idea of nationhood or statehood supporting the idea of a global comity organised on religious lines. A few (by no means a majority, substantial though) among the "yuppie" westernised group, reject the feudals for their conservatism, and the Islamic radicals for their orthodoxy, but favour the military for its "western" veneer - its attire, use of modern technology, structured organization, international links, use of English, and the modern efficient country-within-a-country it operates - the cantonments, schools and colleges, clubs, businesses etc. A fifth group that you miss out is the miniscule community of almost-humanist scholars and intellectuals best typified by the likes of Dr. Hoodbhoy. I say almost because Hoodbhoy comes across as <a href="http://www.monbiot.com/">George Monbiot</a>-if-not-Dawkins-type of free-thinker, who would rather not identify himself as an atheist in Pakistan for obvious reasons. But Dr. Hoodbhoy is the first to bring about a refreshing turn of thought in Pakistan and goes well beyond pseudo-liberals like Eqbal Ahmed, and is willing to accept the real and unsavoury motivations of the League managed movement that led to the creation of Pakistan, so well analysed by Ambedkar in one of his last papers. This is not say that it will take an atheist to turn Pakistan into a secular state, but only an atheist has a perspective radical enough to question the entire Pakistan movement. The creation of Pakistan lies in the past and the Indian subcontinent - as Ambedkar, Patel, and Rajaji rightly concluded - is the better for it.</p> 11 · Bridget Jones said

The way I see it is that there are four power centers – (a) feudal, rich zamindars (b) military-intelligence agency bloc (c) islamists-radicals…

Of these three (a) feudal, rich zamindars and the (b) military-intelligence agency bloc are variants of the third the (c) islamists-radicals. The feudals are the creators and sustainers of the muslims-as-a-nation; while the military is a late entrant to the game, seeking to sustain an Islamic super-state with Pakistan in some sort of leadership role. The last – (c) islamists-radicals – all but reject the idea of nationhood or statehood supporting the idea of a global comity organised on religious lines. A few (by no means a majority, substantial though) among the “yuppie” westernised group, reject the feudals for their conservatism, and the Islamic radicals for their orthodoxy, but favour the military for its “western” veneer – its attire, use of modern technology, structured organization, international links, use of English, and the modern efficient country-within-a-country it operates – the cantonments, schools and colleges, clubs, businesses etc. A fifth group that you miss out is the miniscule community of almost-humanist scholars and intellectuals best typified by the likes of Dr. Hoodbhoy. I say almost because Hoodbhoy comes across as George Monbiot-if-not-Dawkins-type of free-thinker, who would rather not identify himself as an atheist in Pakistan for obvious reasons. But Dr. Hoodbhoy is the first to bring about a refreshing turn of thought in Pakistan and goes well beyond pseudo-liberals like Eqbal Ahmed, and is willing to accept the real and unsavoury motivations of the League managed movement that led to the creation of Pakistan, so well analysed by Ambedkar in one of his last papers. This is not say that it will take an atheist to turn Pakistan into a secular state, but only an atheist has a perspective radical enough to question the entire Pakistan movement. The creation of Pakistan lies in the past and the Indian subcontinent – as Ambedkar, Patel, and Rajaji rightly concluded – is the better for it.

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By: bunty http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-197992 bunty Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:09:19 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-197992 <p>Vinod, democracies often look muddy when compared to dictatorships, simply because they allow you to fling mud around. Rather than judging mushie, who's skeletons are still to tumble out of the cupboard, look back at Pakistan's previous dictatorships. What lasting good have the likes of Zia, yahya khan etc done?</p> Vinod, democracies often look muddy when compared to dictatorships, simply because they allow you to fling mud around. Rather than judging mushie, who’s skeletons are still to tumble out of the cupboard, look back at Pakistan’s previous dictatorships. What lasting good have the likes of Zia, yahya khan etc done?

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By: Yogi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/03/25/in_defense_of_a_1/comment-page-1/#comment-197990 Yogi Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:23:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5109#comment-197990 <blockquote>Vinod, as you know on this issue I share much of your cynicism. However...I am always keeping my eyes and mind open to alternate views. I read this excellent NEW piece by William Dalrymple today that is making me back off my cynicism just a little bit and accepting a slightly more optimistic wait-and-see posture.</blockquote> <p>And I am cynical of the view being put forth by this blog, and not for the first time that Musharraf is better (has been better) for Pakistan than its democratically elected leaders. Let me make it clear that I have no illusions about the political class in Pakistan being angelic but having to face the electorate every five years keeps them some what accountable. Whereas a dictator who also controls the armed forces has zero accountability. How can you assert with such certainty that he was better than the alternatives? How do you know that? Never has Pakistan's reputation been worse than it has been under Musharraf. It is a haven for terrorists, involved in nuclear proliferation (see Khan A Q)and last time I checked it was no capitalist mecca like Singapore.</p> Vinod, as you know on this issue I share much of your cynicism. However…I am always keeping my eyes and mind open to alternate views. I read this excellent NEW piece by William Dalrymple today that is making me back off my cynicism just a little bit and accepting a slightly more optimistic wait-and-see posture.

And I am cynical of the view being put forth by this blog, and not for the first time that Musharraf is better (has been better) for Pakistan than its democratically elected leaders. Let me make it clear that I have no illusions about the political class in Pakistan being angelic but having to face the electorate every five years keeps them some what accountable. Whereas a dictator who also controls the armed forces has zero accountability. How can you assert with such certainty that he was better than the alternatives? How do you know that? Never has Pakistan’s reputation been worse than it has been under Musharraf. It is a haven for terrorists, involved in nuclear proliferation (see Khan A Q)and last time I checked it was no capitalist mecca like Singapore.

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