Comments on: Look Out Begum, Here Comes Rose http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Chrissy http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-227725 Chrissy Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:27:18 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-227725 <p>Can't blame everything on "Victorian morality". Attitudes towards transgendered people in different countries are more deep-rooted in their own cultures.</p> Can’t blame everything on “Victorian morality”. Attitudes towards transgendered people in different countries are more deep-rooted in their own cultures.

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By: Kamanuga bhakti http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194738 Kamanuga bhakti Fri, 22 Feb 2008 21:01:54 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194738 <blockquote>Well, I am not surprised. The country which can give us <b>Kamasutra</b> and temples with <b>idols in various sexual positions </b>can't be so prude deep within, not to mention its population. There are many scholars who believe that <b>the conservativeness in the Indian society probably comes from Mughal purdah system </b>(but then even Rajasthani Rajputs also have had purdah) and Victorian prudery. It is hard to generalize such things though for a society where many centuries survive next to each other.</blockquote> <p>Kama Sutra is written from the male perspective, and as far as my research goes, was intended for the upper class royals and similarly highly educated folk (sanskrit literature). There are various theories on erotic temple sculpture, and some of them are very prudish indeed such as, "the outside walls of our temples represent the life we need to leave behind once we enter into the sacred interior of the holy space".</p> <p>From my readings of Vedic supplementary texts, I have not gleaned an extremely permissable society, especially not for women. I also have gleaned that covering of a woman's hair (and possibly even the face) was something that <i>possibly</i> could have been existent in South Asia prior to the advent of Islam.</p> <p>I think the <i><b>combination</b></i> of ancient Indian ideals in regards the behaviour of "chaste women" and the glorification of rishis and sages who were either lifelong celibates or eventual vanaprasthas and sanyasis at the end of their married life, <b><i>as well as</i></b> later Islamic and Victorian influences are definetly a part of the dysfunctions around women and sexuality we experience in India today.</p> <p>Funny, when I see the issues that are being dealt with in India right now, I see a parallel in all of the religious groups that are Indian influenced here in the West, the ones I'm exposed to anyway.</p> <p>While the West may have progressed, there is an element of backwardsness in many of us who have adopted Indian religions as our own. It is as if we substituted one set of dysfunctions for another, and in many cases, one set of healthy native functions for unhealthy, foreign dysfunctions.</p> <p>The case for such is especially strong in ISKCON (the International Society for Krishna Consciousness), yet I cannot say that my own sect is totally free either.</p> <p>Issues regarding the place of women, sexuality, celibacy and transgenderism are also being tackled by us Westerners who have adopted some sort of an "Indian model" towards life.</p> <p>The parrallels are striking.</p> <p>The current rape and death of a young ISKCON girl in India by a local guy has really spurred some consciousness raising.</p> <p>I missed out on the feminist revolution here in USA. But it looks like I'm just in time for India's.</p> <p>And make no mistake - religion, sexuality, celibacy, transgenderism, these are all feminist issues.</p> Well, I am not surprised. The country which can give us Kamasutra and temples with idols in various sexual positions can’t be so prude deep within, not to mention its population. There are many scholars who believe that the conservativeness in the Indian society probably comes from Mughal purdah system (but then even Rajasthani Rajputs also have had purdah) and Victorian prudery. It is hard to generalize such things though for a society where many centuries survive next to each other.

Kama Sutra is written from the male perspective, and as far as my research goes, was intended for the upper class royals and similarly highly educated folk (sanskrit literature). There are various theories on erotic temple sculpture, and some of them are very prudish indeed such as, “the outside walls of our temples represent the life we need to leave behind once we enter into the sacred interior of the holy space”.

From my readings of Vedic supplementary texts, I have not gleaned an extremely permissable society, especially not for women. I also have gleaned that covering of a woman’s hair (and possibly even the face) was something that possibly could have been existent in South Asia prior to the advent of Islam.

I think the combination of ancient Indian ideals in regards the behaviour of “chaste women” and the glorification of rishis and sages who were either lifelong celibates or eventual vanaprasthas and sanyasis at the end of their married life, as well as later Islamic and Victorian influences are definetly a part of the dysfunctions around women and sexuality we experience in India today.

Funny, when I see the issues that are being dealt with in India right now, I see a parallel in all of the religious groups that are Indian influenced here in the West, the ones I’m exposed to anyway.

While the West may have progressed, there is an element of backwardsness in many of us who have adopted Indian religions as our own. It is as if we substituted one set of dysfunctions for another, and in many cases, one set of healthy native functions for unhealthy, foreign dysfunctions.

The case for such is especially strong in ISKCON (the International Society for Krishna Consciousness), yet I cannot say that my own sect is totally free either.

Issues regarding the place of women, sexuality, celibacy and transgenderism are also being tackled by us Westerners who have adopted some sort of an “Indian model” towards life.

The parrallels are striking.

The current rape and death of a young ISKCON girl in India by a local guy has really spurred some consciousness raising.

I missed out on the feminist revolution here in USA. But it looks like I’m just in time for India’s.

And make no mistake – religion, sexuality, celibacy, transgenderism, these are all feminist issues.

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By: Kurma http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194643 Kurma Fri, 22 Feb 2008 00:25:18 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194643 <blockquote>Hmm, an Indian in Louisiana who changed their given name to a Christian name</blockquote> <p>Rose ain't no Christian name, yo!</p> Hmm, an Indian in Louisiana who changed their given name to a Christian name

Rose ain’t no Christian name, yo!

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By: AR http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194625 AR Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:28:20 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194625 <p>I'm not sure that Indian homophobia can be blamed squarely on the British or Mughal influence, but it's great to see healthier, more acceptant attitudes toward sex and sexuality in the desh.</p> I’m not sure that Indian homophobia can be blamed squarely on the British or Mughal influence, but it’s great to see healthier, more acceptant attitudes toward sex and sexuality in the desh.

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By: sadaiyappan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194615 sadaiyappan Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:26:11 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194615 <p>I like how he says the sari is a flattering garment. Compared to modern clothes it's not flattering but if you compare it to tradional ethic clothing from other cultures the sari is very revealing and sexy..</p> I like how he says the sari is a flattering garment. Compared to modern clothes it’s not flattering but if you compare it to tradional ethic clothing from other cultures the sari is very revealing and sexy..

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By: amaun http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194571 amaun Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:52:29 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194571 <p><i>"sad situation" ? If you haven't noticed that many parts of the world and the vast majority of people on the planet are in a "sad situation" becauase of poverty..</i></p> <p>In the anecdote above what makes you think that they are walking the streets and rolling in wealth.</p> “sad situation” ? If you haven’t noticed that many parts of the world and the vast majority of people on the planet are in a “sad situation” becauase of poverty..

In the anecdote above what makes you think that they are walking the streets and rolling in wealth.

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By: sadaiyappan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194558 sadaiyappan Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:43:37 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194558 <p>"sad situation" ? If you haven't noticed that many parts of the world and the vast majority of people on the planet are in a "sad situation" becauase of poverty..</p> “sad situation” ? If you haven’t noticed that many parts of the world and the vast majority of people on the planet are in a “sad situation” becauase of poverty..

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By: dio http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194557 dio Thu, 21 Feb 2008 07:06:14 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194557 <p>I was in Penang, Malayasia at the start of Navarathri this year and I went to one of the local devi koils for the first day puja...there were four transgendered Tamil girls, all decked out out in kanjeevarams, tons of jewerlry, mallipu in their hair, and no one actually seemed to have a problem with it! They participated in everything-touching the plate of flower offerings, aarthi, archanai etc...they seemed to enjoy the dances afterwards more than the rest of the crowd there too.</p> <p>I couldn't help but think that if they were to show up at the Flushing or Pittsburgh or Pearland or whatever other US temples, that the pujaris and the others assembled there wouldn't be nearly as cordial...</p> <p>But anyways, later that week I actually had a more in depth conversation with a few of them that spoke English-and their life is all but hunky dory-by and large, they're looked down upon and don't have many options other than working the streets. They're harrassed by the cops quite often as well (at least according to what they say) It's a pretty sad situation.</p> I was in Penang, Malayasia at the start of Navarathri this year and I went to one of the local devi koils for the first day puja…there were four transgendered Tamil girls, all decked out out in kanjeevarams, tons of jewerlry, mallipu in their hair, and no one actually seemed to have a problem with it! They participated in everything-touching the plate of flower offerings, aarthi, archanai etc…they seemed to enjoy the dances afterwards more than the rest of the crowd there too.

I couldn’t help but think that if they were to show up at the Flushing or Pittsburgh or Pearland or whatever other US temples, that the pujaris and the others assembled there wouldn’t be nearly as cordial…

But anyways, later that week I actually had a more in depth conversation with a few of them that spoke English-and their life is all but hunky dory-by and large, they’re looked down upon and don’t have many options other than working the streets. They’re harrassed by the cops quite often as well (at least according to what they say) It’s a pretty sad situation.

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By: V.V. Ganeshananthan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194442 V.V. Ganeshananthan Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:22:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194442 <p>I enjoy shopping for saris, but not wearing them. And they are certainly not universally flattering! Props to Rose for her... courage. She sounds kind of awesome.</p> I enjoy shopping for saris, but not wearing them. And they are certainly not universally flattering! Props to Rose for her… courage. She sounds kind of awesome.

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By: sadaiyappan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/02/20/look_out_begum/comment-page-1/#comment-194437 sadaiyappan Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:04:02 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=5040#comment-194437 <p>well if i was a trans i would hang out with other transes.. it's possible she changed her given name for protection..</p> well if i was a trans i would hang out with other transes.. it’s possible she changed her given name for protection..

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