Comments on: An Affirmative Action Casualty (Updated) http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: brownout http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-190696 brownout Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:36:00 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-190696 <p>Anyone see this <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/09/28/at_the_elite_colleges___dim_white_kids/?page=full">article</a> a few months ago?</p> <blockquote> Who are these mediocre white students getting into institutions such as Harvard, Wellesley, Notre Dame, Duke, and the University of Virginia? A sizable number are recruited athletes who, research has shown, will perform worse on average than other students with similar academic profiles, mainly as a result of the demands their coaches will place on them.....A larger share, however, are students who gained admission through their ties to people the institution wanted to keep happy, with alumni, donors, faculty members, administrators, and politicians topping the list. ...Applicants who stood no chance of gaining admission without connections are only the most blatant beneficiaries of such admissions preferences. Except perhaps at the very summit of the applicant pile - that lofty place occupied by young people too brilliant for anyone in their right mind to turn down - colleges routinely favor those who have connections over those who don't. While some applicants gain admission by legitimately beating out their peers, many others get into exclusive colleges the same way people get into trendy night clubs, by knowing the management or flashing cash at the person manning the velvet rope. </blockquote> Anyone see this article a few months ago?

Who are these mediocre white students getting into institutions such as Harvard, Wellesley, Notre Dame, Duke, and the University of Virginia? A sizable number are recruited athletes who, research has shown, will perform worse on average than other students with similar academic profiles, mainly as a result of the demands their coaches will place on them…..A larger share, however, are students who gained admission through their ties to people the institution wanted to keep happy, with alumni, donors, faculty members, administrators, and politicians topping the list. …Applicants who stood no chance of gaining admission without connections are only the most blatant beneficiaries of such admissions preferences. Except perhaps at the very summit of the applicant pile – that lofty place occupied by young people too brilliant for anyone in their right mind to turn down – colleges routinely favor those who have connections over those who don’t. While some applicants gain admission by legitimately beating out their peers, many others get into exclusive colleges the same way people get into trendy night clubs, by knowing the management or flashing cash at the person manning the velvet rope.
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By: Camille http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-190370 Camille Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:57:30 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-190370 <blockquote>So you would characterize this blog as one for primarily ABDs?</blockquote> <p>I said it was U.S.-oriented -- you are welcome to interpret that as you like. Unless you are going to provide a context or definition when using an amorphous term like "progressive," then don't be surprised if people try to contextualize it, either by framing it in the context of the U.S., of India, of the UK, or of Canada (the four most frequent "posting regions" from commenters on this blog).</p> So you would characterize this blog as one for primarily ABDs?

I said it was U.S.-oriented — you are welcome to interpret that as you like. Unless you are going to provide a context or definition when using an amorphous term like “progressive,” then don’t be surprised if people try to contextualize it, either by framing it in the context of the U.S., of India, of the UK, or of Canada (the four most frequent “posting regions” from commenters on this blog).

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By: sunzari http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-190199 sunzari Sat, 19 Jan 2008 16:09:21 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-190199 <p><i>21 · <b><a href="http://tamasha.typepad.com">tamasha</a></b> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004971.html#comment189150">said</a></i></p> <blockquote><blockquote>now that they've dumbed down the SATs</blockquote> How have they dumbed it down? Anyway, IS 239 is supposed to be great (great principal and teachers) but it's got 1200+ students in three grades. Gifted or not, I wouldn't willingly send my child to a school that big. Not in those fragile early adolescent years. </blockquote> <p>I went to one such school and I survived. Meh...It builds character. NYC public education all the way!</p> <p>While I agree with the premise of the parents' suit, its naive to believe her attaining a Harvard education is stifled by her not attending this particular school. Ultimately, where one went to junior high school won't be a hindrance on getting into the ivys. Your intelligence (and numbers) will qualify you, and that's prioritized before the name of your JHS or HS.</p> 21 · tamasha said

now that they’ve dumbed down the SATs
How have they dumbed it down? Anyway, IS 239 is supposed to be great (great principal and teachers) but it’s got 1200+ students in three grades. Gifted or not, I wouldn’t willingly send my child to a school that big. Not in those fragile early adolescent years.

I went to one such school and I survived. Meh…It builds character. NYC public education all the way!

While I agree with the premise of the parents’ suit, its naive to believe her attaining a Harvard education is stifled by her not attending this particular school. Ultimately, where one went to junior high school won’t be a hindrance on getting into the ivys. Your intelligence (and numbers) will qualify you, and that’s prioritized before the name of your JHS or HS.

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-189920 Manju Fri, 18 Jan 2008 06:32:18 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-189920 <p><i>133 · <B><A href="mailto:jangali.janwar@gmail.com" rel=nofollow>Jangali Jaanwar</A></B> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004971.html#comment189911">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>I'm not aware of any provision in the act or a case that follows your conclusion. I may be missing something in the analysis. If you know or come across something that supports your hypothesis, please let me know. I mean that sincerely. (I say without any hint of prickishness - I really am interested).</blockquote> <p>well, i know of no investment firms that only invest in white-owned business', but if one had such a charter i'd assume they'd fall under provisions outlawing employment discrimination (especially in the venture business where the investment firm essentially owns the start-up outright) or public-accommodations clause since such a bank would be telling prospective entrepreneurs that they can't approach the bank for financing, based on their race. and this is a bank that would be otherwise open to the rest of the public, as one look at their website, <a href="http://www.sequoiacap.com/people/mohit-bhatnagar/">replete with e-mails</a>, <a href="http://www.hcp.com/content4451.html">phone #'s</a>, and <a href="http://www.dfj.com/submit_plan/index.html">instructions on how to submit a b-plan </a>would indicate that they are open to the public.</p> <p>i mean, if commercial banks can't discriminate on the basis of race when it comes to lending, why would ibanks or vc firms be allowed to when it comes to investing?</p> 133 · Jangali Jaanwar said

I’m not aware of any provision in the act or a case that follows your conclusion. I may be missing something in the analysis. If you know or come across something that supports your hypothesis, please let me know. I mean that sincerely. (I say without any hint of prickishness – I really am interested).

well, i know of no investment firms that only invest in white-owned business’, but if one had such a charter i’d assume they’d fall under provisions outlawing employment discrimination (especially in the venture business where the investment firm essentially owns the start-up outright) or public-accommodations clause since such a bank would be telling prospective entrepreneurs that they can’t approach the bank for financing, based on their race. and this is a bank that would be otherwise open to the rest of the public, as one look at their website, replete with e-mails, phone #’s, and instructions on how to submit a b-plan would indicate that they are open to the public.

i mean, if commercial banks can’t discriminate on the basis of race when it comes to lending, why would ibanks or vc firms be allowed to when it comes to investing?

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By: Jangali Jaanwar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-189911 Jangali Jaanwar Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:59:14 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-189911 <blockquote>actually, if a vc firm only invested in white-owned business, i think the govt would come down hard using the '64 civil rights act, no?</blockquote> <p>Manju,</p> <p>I'm not aware of any provision in the act or a case that follows your conclusion. I may be missing something in the analysis. If you know or come across something that supports your hypothesis, please let me know. I mean that sincerely. (I say without any hint of prickishness - I really am interested).</p> actually, if a vc firm only invested in white-owned business, i think the govt would come down hard using the ’64 civil rights act, no?

Manju,

I’m not aware of any provision in the act or a case that follows your conclusion. I may be missing something in the analysis. If you know or come across something that supports your hypothesis, please let me know. I mean that sincerely. (I say without any hint of prickishness – I really am interested).

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-189797 Manju Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:50:06 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-189797 <p><i>131 · <B>Jangali Janwar</B> <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/004971.html#comment189790">said</a></i></p> <blockquote>If they choose to invest in only one type of group, I don't see that as being impermissible.</blockquote> <p>actually, if a vc firm only invested in white-owned business, i think the govt would come down hard using the '64 civil rights act, no? i understand the public/private dichotomy and perhaps bringing up private actors is a little peripheral to this post, but i was just curious as to what extent the law allows for favorable treatment of POC and women. my guess is in public education it is now very narrow, in public employment there is a little more leeway but scotus hasn't quite got to it yet, and in private employment its a free for all. but i could be wrong.</p> 131 · Jangali Janwar said

If they choose to invest in only one type of group, I don’t see that as being impermissible.

actually, if a vc firm only invested in white-owned business, i think the govt would come down hard using the ’64 civil rights act, no? i understand the public/private dichotomy and perhaps bringing up private actors is a little peripheral to this post, but i was just curious as to what extent the law allows for favorable treatment of POC and women. my guess is in public education it is now very narrow, in public employment there is a little more leeway but scotus hasn’t quite got to it yet, and in private employment its a free for all. but i could be wrong.

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By: Jangali Janwar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-189790 Jangali Janwar Fri, 18 Jan 2008 02:26:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-189790 <p>Manju,</p> <p>Fair enough on the lower scrutiny applied to radio airwaves. My mention of them was to simply an illustration that race is considered in other contexts. The equal protection clause of the Constitution only applies to public entities or government intervention. Discrimination in the workplace (hiring or firing based on race) would be restricted by a whole host of laws and constitutional clauses, 13th Amendment, Commerce Clause and Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.</p> <p>Private entities such as Ibanks and VC firms that use private funds (hence free from gov't involvement) are free to invest in whom they choose. If they choose to invest in only one type of group, I don't see that as being impermissible.</p> Manju,

Fair enough on the lower scrutiny applied to radio airwaves. My mention of them was to simply an illustration that race is considered in other contexts. The equal protection clause of the Constitution only applies to public entities or government intervention. Discrimination in the workplace (hiring or firing based on race) would be restricted by a whole host of laws and constitutional clauses, 13th Amendment, Commerce Clause and Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

Private entities such as Ibanks and VC firms that use private funds (hence free from gov’t involvement) are free to invest in whom they choose. If they choose to invest in only one type of group, I don’t see that as being impermissible.

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-189773 Manju Fri, 18 Jan 2008 01:04:37 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-189773 <p>thanks JJ. i would be careful about extrapolating cases involving radio airwaves out to other areas, since the limited supply and public ownership of the airways apparently entitles them to a lower level of constitutional scrutiny even when it comes to the first amendment (think "fairness" doctrine, which would be clearly unconstitutional if applied to the print press, for example).</p> <p>it's also interesting to note that some private financiers--start-up ibanks and vc firm--often explicitly discriminate on the basis of race and gender (only investing in women or POC led business) and have not come under any '64 civil rights act challenges, as far as i know.</p> thanks JJ. i would be careful about extrapolating cases involving radio airwaves out to other areas, since the limited supply and public ownership of the airways apparently entitles them to a lower level of constitutional scrutiny even when it comes to the first amendment (think “fairness” doctrine, which would be clearly unconstitutional if applied to the print press, for example).

it’s also interesting to note that some private financiers–start-up ibanks and vc firm–often explicitly discriminate on the basis of race and gender (only investing in women or POC led business) and have not come under any ’64 civil rights act challenges, as far as i know.

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By: Jangali Janwar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-189769 Jangali Janwar Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:52:49 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-189769 <p>Aargh, that last line should read minority employees.</p> Aargh, that last line should read minority employees.

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By: Jangali Janwar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2008/01/15/affirmative_act_1/comment-page-3/#comment-189763 Jangali Janwar Fri, 18 Jan 2008 00:36:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4971#comment-189763 <p>Manju and Teacup,</p> <p>There are Supreme Court decisions that allow the use of race as a preference in the issuance of government contracts. For example, in the sale of radio airwave licenses by the FCC to minority owned radio stations to insure there is a diversity of programming. The case is Metro Broadcasting v. FCC. Additionally, in Adarand (don't remember the full name), the court recognized that the government could use racial/gender preferences to issue gov't contracts to minority/women owned business to remedy past discrimination. (Ex. Construction contracts). So race while not explicitly used in the employment context, it can be a factor in the issuance of gov't contracts to companies that are likely to have minorities employees.</p> Manju and Teacup,

There are Supreme Court decisions that allow the use of race as a preference in the issuance of government contracts. For example, in the sale of radio airwave licenses by the FCC to minority owned radio stations to insure there is a diversity of programming. The case is Metro Broadcasting v. FCC. Additionally, in Adarand (don’t remember the full name), the court recognized that the government could use racial/gender preferences to issue gov’t contracts to minority/women owned business to remedy past discrimination. (Ex. Construction contracts). So race while not explicitly used in the employment context, it can be a factor in the issuance of gov’t contracts to companies that are likely to have minorities employees.

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