Comments on: Bone(s), thugs ~n~ western medicine http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: AdesiUncle http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181191 AdesiUncle Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:57:47 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181191 <blockquote>But there is a very limited tradition among Hindus of revisiting the gravesites of loved ones. As you pointed out, people either thoroughly (electrically is good) cremate the body or toss it, superficially burnt, into a river. I assume they do not track its progress downstream.</blockquote> <p>fyi, 'thoroughly' cremating does not reduce everything to ashes; bones also remain - ashes and bones are taken to be merged with ocean or holy river leading finally to sea. Whether someone is able to track its progress or not - it does not mean they dont care about their loved ones remains getting back to the elements <em>without being intercepted</em>. Surely, such a green concept is to be appreciated. Instead, your 'logic' is boderline offensive. Emotional implications of bone marketing are there as long as you have emotions.</p> But there is a very limited tradition among Hindus of revisiting the gravesites of loved ones. As you pointed out, people either thoroughly (electrically is good) cremate the body or toss it, superficially burnt, into a river. I assume they do not track its progress downstream.

fyi, ‘thoroughly’ cremating does not reduce everything to ashes; bones also remain – ashes and bones are taken to be merged with ocean or holy river leading finally to sea. Whether someone is able to track its progress or not – it does not mean they dont care about their loved ones remains getting back to the elements without being intercepted. Surely, such a green concept is to be appreciated. Instead, your ‘logic’ is boderline offensive. Emotional implications of bone marketing are there as long as you have emotions.

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By: Pondatti http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181150 Pondatti Thu, 06 Dec 2007 20:00:53 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181150 <p>I wonder how much of this skepticism would exist if the author of the article were named "Sai Karthikeyan" instead of "Scott Carney".</p> I wonder how much of this skepticism would exist if the author of the article were named “Sai Karthikeyan” instead of “Scott Carney”.

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By: VV Varaiya http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181147 VV Varaiya Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:46:06 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181147 <p>I am skeptical of several points in this article:</p> <ol> <li>China lacks the skills to prepare adequate skeletons. They are known internationally in transplantation of live tissues, and they can't produce proper skeletons? Unlikely.</li> <li>To avoid the "2000 rupee charge" people readily accept a perfunctory cremation. An isolated case (did you actually document the cases?) does not make a factory.</li> <li>There's a process to test the origin of the bones. There's sufficient DNA for analysis. Did you have "received" skeletons in the US tested? </li> <li>Why not try to procure some skeletons in the US and see the supply chain? </li> <li>Medical schools in the US have processes in place; where's the evidence of their malfeasance? </li> </ol> <p>This article has the same tone as the sex-slave trafficking articles of a couple years ago... they have proven to be vastly blown out of proportion.</p> I am skeptical of several points in this article:

  1. China lacks the skills to prepare adequate skeletons. They are known internationally in transplantation of live tissues, and they can’t produce proper skeletons? Unlikely.
  2. To avoid the “2000 rupee charge” people readily accept a perfunctory cremation. An isolated case (did you actually document the cases?) does not make a factory.
  3. There’s a process to test the origin of the bones. There’s sufficient DNA for analysis. Did you have “received” skeletons in the US tested?
  4. Why not try to procure some skeletons in the US and see the supply chain?
  5. Medical schools in the US have processes in place; where’s the evidence of their malfeasance?

This article has the same tone as the sex-slave trafficking articles of a couple years ago… they have proven to be vastly blown out of proportion.

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By: SM Intern http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181126 SM Intern Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:46:45 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181126 <p>It is too early in the morning for hostility. Seriously. I can't even articulate what I need to moderate. Carry on (or not, please).</p> It is too early in the morning for hostility. Seriously. I can’t even articulate what I need to moderate. Carry on (or not, please).

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By: Nizam of Sarakki http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181124 Nizam of Sarakki Thu, 06 Dec 2007 15:25:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181124 <h1>14 - Scott, going way back, your point is well taken. But there is a very limited tradition among Hindus of revisiting the gravesites of loved ones. As you pointed out, people either thoroughly (electrically is good) cremate the body or toss it, superficially burnt, into a river. I assume they do not track its progress downstream. Except for Muslim and Christian families, I wonder whether the emotional implications of bone-marketeering arent quite limited.</h1> <p>Nevertheless, your story is extremely interesting.</p> 14 – Scott, going way back, your point is well taken. But there is a very limited tradition among Hindus of revisiting the gravesites of loved ones. As you pointed out, people either thoroughly (electrically is good) cremate the body or toss it, superficially burnt, into a river. I assume they do not track its progress downstream. Except for Muslim and Christian families, I wonder whether the emotional implications of bone-marketeering arent quite limited.

Nevertheless, your story is extremely interesting.

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By: Scott Carney http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181122 Scott Carney Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:22:44 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181122 <blockquote>That being said, I don't disagree with the content of the Wired story--just that haters like narayan would be more convincingly blown out of the water with a few links to supporting online resources for us lazy blog-readers to peruse (yes, read closely).</blockquote> <p>For people interested in checking my facts feel free to use Google. I would suggest keywords like "bone factory" and "india bones", "reuters India bones" and "Osta International" and "The Bone Room". I've already done my research, you can read about it in my article. Anyone else who wants to can check my facts.</p> That being said, I don’t disagree with the content of the Wired story–just that haters like narayan would be more convincingly blown out of the water with a few links to supporting online resources for us lazy blog-readers to peruse (yes, read closely).

For people interested in checking my facts feel free to use Google. I would suggest keywords like “bone factory” and “india bones”, “reuters India bones” and “Osta International” and “The Bone Room”. I’ve already done my research, you can read about it in my article. Anyone else who wants to can check my facts.

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By: muralimannered http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181121 muralimannered Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:50:56 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181121 <blockquote>which case you should realize that every piece of writing in WIRED goes through two levels of fact checking where every sentence, and every word is followed up by a team of independent researchers. But I guess you could argue that they are all making this up too. In which case you are entitled to whatever opinion you want.</blockquote> <p>I think narayan is really stretching by calling you a fabulist. However in the aftermath of the Scott Beauchamp and W. Thomas Smith controversies, where publications like TNR and the NRO have copped to the fact that their fact-checking process could do little to catch fabrications supplied by trusted correspondents abroad, saying that Wired has a fact-checking process doesn't automatically allay people's fears about the veracity of your reporting.</p> <p>That being said, I don't disagree with the content of the Wired story--just that haters like narayan would be more convincingly blown out of the water with a few links to supporting online resources for us lazy blog-readers to peruse (yes, read closely).</p> which case you should realize that every piece of writing in WIRED goes through two levels of fact checking where every sentence, and every word is followed up by a team of independent researchers. But I guess you could argue that they are all making this up too. In which case you are entitled to whatever opinion you want.

I think narayan is really stretching by calling you a fabulist. However in the aftermath of the Scott Beauchamp and W. Thomas Smith controversies, where publications like TNR and the NRO have copped to the fact that their fact-checking process could do little to catch fabrications supplied by trusted correspondents abroad, saying that Wired has a fact-checking process doesn’t automatically allay people’s fears about the veracity of your reporting.

That being said, I don’t disagree with the content of the Wired story–just that haters like narayan would be more convincingly blown out of the water with a few links to supporting online resources for us lazy blog-readers to peruse (yes, read closely).

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By: Scott Carney http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181120 Scott Carney Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:52:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181120 <blockquote>On what authority does Scott Carney blithely report "for 200 years", and "British doctors hired thieves to dig up bodies from Indian cemeteries"?</blockquote> <p>It would really be better if you had actually read the story in WIRED before writing such a lengthy comment attacking my credibility. You can find a link at the top of this thread.</p> <p>If you had read the report you would notice that I not only met people who work in the bone factories in Calcutta, but saw huge caches of bones that were being prepared for export. You might also have read that I had contacted more than 30 medical schools in the united states and interviewed them about their bone procurement. You would have also learned that I spoke with every major bone supplier in the United States and found out where the bones came from.</p> <p>If you were unusually preceptive you might have also noticed that I was talking about the skeleton trade, and not the cadaver trade. It's a subtle distinction, but skeletons were supplied by India to the UK and USA. Cadavers were always harvested domestically. If you re-read the article and figure out why that is an important difference.</p> <p>After reading the article, you might still have some qualms with what I wrote. In which case you should realize that every piece of writing in WIRED goes through two levels of fact checking where every sentence, and every word is followed up by a team of independent researchers. But I guess you could argue that they are all making this up too. In which case you are entitled to whatever opinion you want.</p> On what authority does Scott Carney blithely report “for 200 years”, and “British doctors hired thieves to dig up bodies from Indian cemeteries”?

It would really be better if you had actually read the story in WIRED before writing such a lengthy comment attacking my credibility. You can find a link at the top of this thread.

If you had read the report you would notice that I not only met people who work in the bone factories in Calcutta, but saw huge caches of bones that were being prepared for export. You might also have read that I had contacted more than 30 medical schools in the united states and interviewed them about their bone procurement. You would have also learned that I spoke with every major bone supplier in the United States and found out where the bones came from.

If you were unusually preceptive you might have also noticed that I was talking about the skeleton trade, and not the cadaver trade. It’s a subtle distinction, but skeletons were supplied by India to the UK and USA. Cadavers were always harvested domestically. If you re-read the article and figure out why that is an important difference.

After reading the article, you might still have some qualms with what I wrote. In which case you should realize that every piece of writing in WIRED goes through two levels of fact checking where every sentence, and every word is followed up by a team of independent researchers. But I guess you could argue that they are all making this up too. In which case you are entitled to whatever opinion you want.

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By: narayan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181115 narayan Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:15:27 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181115 <p>Maafi : I meant credibility.</p> Maafi : I meant credibility.

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By: narayan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/12/04/bones_thugs_and/comment-page-2/#comment-181113 narayan Thu, 06 Dec 2007 09:04:50 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4884#comment-181113 <pre><code>On what authority does Scott Carney blithely report "for 200 years", and "British doctors hired thieves to dig up bodies from Indian cemeteries"? In the space of one paragraph Carney has managed to turn this non-story into a suggestion of a Western conspiracy against Indians. Replace 200 with 'N', British with 'X', and Indian with 'Y' and you might be closer to the sordid truth. I think it is far too easy for the Carneys of the West to go to India for their stories rather than to the Congo, say. Encouraging outrage by concocting a slant is a cheap way of developing interest in a story. Doesn't anyone have an ounce of skepticism any more? This stuff has been going on throughout the world ever since there has been the empirical study of anatomy. Carney is pandering to our gullibility, and we are only too glad, predictably, to see this as them-against-us. If India is truly the major source for specimen skeletons, perhaps we should be looking at ourselves much more cynically. It took me a while to remember where I had first heard of grave-robbing for the needs of anatomists. Dickens' "A Tale of Two Cities" has a character named Jerry Cruncher, an odd-job man who augments his income by plying the occasional trade of "resurrection man". I don't know if Dickens coined the term himself, or if the term was in use in his day. Given Dickens' reputation as a social historian I am willing to accept that this was a well known (if sub-rosa) trade in England. Carney's "200 years" suggests that Jerry Cruncher's moonlighting was being threatened by outsourcing! In the past couple of years there have been at least two infamous cases in the US of the body parts trade and grave desecration for profit, and both of them have showed up on "Law and Order" as "fiction". So 'X' and 'X' also works for me. </code></pre> <p>P.S. > Carney's comments on this blog are vapid, speculative, unknowledgeable, unprincipled and unethical. To me at least, he has no credulity as a journalist. 11. "and a lot of other places in India, I've discovered recently" - unsubstantiated "people just go and dig up graves" - hyperbolic, a wild-ass claim "I don't think that criminals should be protected" - childish 14 & 20 This is a journalist writing?! "puts some ghee in the body's mouth and lights it on fire" - exaggeration 45. Highly speculative and illogical<br /> "Everywhere else in the world people just put a headstone and then bury the body" - The man has an extremely limited knowledge of burial practices over the world including Christian countries. 52. How stupid can this get? Why bring Mother Teresa into it? Perhaps she was thinking of headstone tipping. Perhaps people go to Calcutta graveyards to make love, to defecate, to urinate, to masturbate; the possibilities are endless, but Carney uses her to bolster his story. 64. "domestic consumption" -- surely you jest! Latinate idiocy. The second paragraph is all hearsay. 66. "what else can I say" -- Nothing at all - not until you've read Jessica Mitford. 74. Dear Dr. Henry Gray : please don't! You'll be risking your reputation.</p> On what authority does Scott Carney blithely report "for 200 years", and "British doctors hired thieves to dig up bodies from Indian cemeteries"? In the space of one paragraph Carney has managed to turn this non-story into a suggestion of a Western conspiracy against Indians. Replace 200 with 'N', British with 'X', and Indian with 'Y' and you might be closer to the sordid truth. I think it is far too easy for the Carneys of the West to go to India for their stories rather than to the Congo, say. Encouraging outrage by concocting a slant is a cheap way of developing interest in a story. Doesn't anyone have an ounce of skepticism any more? This stuff has been going on throughout the world ever since there has been the empirical study of anatomy. Carney is pandering to our gullibility, and we are only too glad, predictably, to see this as them-against-us. If India is truly the major source for specimen skeletons, perhaps we should be looking at ourselves much more cynically. It took me a while to remember where I had first heard of grave-robbing for the needs of anatomists. Dickens' "A Tale of Two Cities" has a character named Jerry Cruncher, an odd-job man who augments his income by plying the occasional trade of "resurrection man". I don't know if Dickens coined the term himself, or if the term was in use in his day. Given Dickens' reputation as a social historian I am willing to accept that this was a well known (if sub-rosa) trade in England. Carney's "200 years" suggests that Jerry Cruncher's moonlighting was being threatened by outsourcing! In the past couple of years there have been at least two infamous cases in the US of the body parts trade and grave desecration for profit, and both of them have showed up on "Law and Order" as "fiction". So 'X' and 'X' also works for me.

P.S. > Carney’s comments on this blog are vapid, speculative, unknowledgeable, unprincipled and unethical. To me at least, he has no credulity as a journalist. 11. “and a lot of other places in India, I’ve discovered recently” – unsubstantiated “people just go and dig up graves” – hyperbolic, a wild-ass claim “I don’t think that criminals should be protected” – childish 14 & 20 This is a journalist writing?! “puts some ghee in the body’s mouth and lights it on fire” – exaggeration 45. Highly speculative and illogical
“Everywhere else in the world people just put a headstone and then bury the body” – The man has an extremely limited knowledge of burial practices over the world including Christian countries. 52. How stupid can this get? Why bring Mother Teresa into it? Perhaps she was thinking of headstone tipping. Perhaps people go to Calcutta graveyards to make love, to defecate, to urinate, to masturbate; the possibilities are endless, but Carney uses her to bolster his story. 64. “domestic consumption” — surely you jest! Latinate idiocy. The second paragraph is all hearsay. 66. “what else can I say” — Nothing at all – not until you’ve read Jessica Mitford. 74. Dear Dr. Henry Gray : please don’t! You’ll be risking your reputation.

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