Comments on: Taslima Nasreen: A Roundup http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: vishal http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-180192 vishal Fri, 30 Nov 2007 19:57:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-180192 <p>Interesting alternate Point of View : <a href="http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/vkshashikumar/191/2639/taslima-nasreen-is-not-on-the-run.html">http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/vkshashikumar/191/2639/taslima-nasreen-is-not-on-the-run.html</a></p> Interesting alternate Point of View : http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/vkshashikumar/191/2639/taslima-nasreen-is-not-on-the-run.html

]]>
By: Al beruni http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-180159 Al beruni Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:10:43 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-180159 <p><a href="http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071130/asp/opinion/story_8610147.asp">Taslima Nasreen has forced India to confront its own hypocrisy</a></p> Taslima Nasreen has forced India to confront its own hypocrisy

]]>
By: Sabrin http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-180140 Sabrin Fri, 30 Nov 2007 14:57:36 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-180140 <p>Here's the latest news re: Taslima Nasreen. Apparently she has decided to omit some controversial lines from her book and the Indian goverment has pledged to continue protecting her. But the question that comes to mind is, if she was willing to edit her work to appease the Indian government, what prevented her from doing the same so she could return to Bangladesh?</p> <p><i>However, noted painter Shuvaprassana said Ms Nasreen had compromised by withdrawing the lines.</p> <p>"This is a compromise that she has been forced into for the sake of getting refuge. But if she can drop two pages to get refuge in India, she can drop three pages and go back to Bangladesh," he said. </i></p> <p>Here is the link to the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7120473.stm</p> Here’s the latest news re: Taslima Nasreen. Apparently she has decided to omit some controversial lines from her book and the Indian goverment has pledged to continue protecting her. But the question that comes to mind is, if she was willing to edit her work to appease the Indian government, what prevented her from doing the same so she could return to Bangladesh?

However, noted painter Shuvaprassana said Ms Nasreen had compromised by withdrawing the lines.

“This is a compromise that she has been forced into for the sake of getting refuge. But if she can drop two pages to get refuge in India, she can drop three pages and go back to Bangladesh,” he said.

Here is the link to the article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7120473.stm

]]>
By: vishal http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-180086 vishal Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:39:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-180086 <p>Ok, the latest news is that CPI has allowed Taslima to <a href="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Taslima_should_be_given_the_freedom_to_live_CPI/articleshow/2583052.cms">live</a> [& not die prematurely from mob violence ?] :P</p> Ok, the latest news is that CPI has allowed Taslima to live [& not die prematurely from mob violence ?] :P

]]>
By: Shaad http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-179991 Shaad Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:32:00 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-179991 <p>Re 18 and 31:</p> <p>Speaking as yet another Bengali who read some of her work, her essays were not bad. In contrast, I found her fiction and autobiography to be well, not quite as good, filled as they were with inconsistent characterizations such as female protagonists switching instantaneously from victims to staunchly liberated women, or male characters switching from being portrayed as dimwits in one page to the gleeful embodiment of knowingly evil patriarchy in the next. She also has a tendency to take potshots at certain male acquaintances, in some cases other writers and artists, often using sex and their reported attraction to her as weapons. Now, given that her writing often celebrates pre-marital and extra-marital sex in women, I find her use of that same device to attempt to shame some of her male acquaintances a little tacky.</p> <p>That said, and while I think my (the Bangladeshi) government handled the case poorly, most moderate Bangladeshis are probably a little divided on how they feel about Taslima. I believe Tazeen Murshid does a fairly decent job of bringing this out in <a href="http://www.whrnet.org/fundamentalisms/docs/doc-wsf-tazeen-taslima-0311.rtf">a paper</a> presented in the Women's Human Rights Net.</p> Re 18 and 31:

Speaking as yet another Bengali who read some of her work, her essays were not bad. In contrast, I found her fiction and autobiography to be well, not quite as good, filled as they were with inconsistent characterizations such as female protagonists switching instantaneously from victims to staunchly liberated women, or male characters switching from being portrayed as dimwits in one page to the gleeful embodiment of knowingly evil patriarchy in the next. She also has a tendency to take potshots at certain male acquaintances, in some cases other writers and artists, often using sex and their reported attraction to her as weapons. Now, given that her writing often celebrates pre-marital and extra-marital sex in women, I find her use of that same device to attempt to shame some of her male acquaintances a little tacky.

That said, and while I think my (the Bangladeshi) government handled the case poorly, most moderate Bangladeshis are probably a little divided on how they feel about Taslima. I believe Tazeen Murshid does a fairly decent job of bringing this out in a paper presented in the Women’s Human Rights Net.

]]>
By: Amit http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-179988 Amit Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:54:31 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-179988 <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting">Here's the wiki entry</a>. Usual caveat applies. Quite an interesting read.</p> Here’s the wiki entry. Usual caveat applies. Quite an interesting read.

]]>
By: Shaad http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-179983 Shaad Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:26:44 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-179983 <p>Re 108:</p> <p>I did look into this issue quite some time back. To the best of my recollection, clitoridectomy or other forms of FGM are not mentioned in the Quran. There are a couple of Hadiths which appear to be supportive of (or at least not opposed to) FGM, but these are considered to da'if (weak) and not shahih (strong) hadiths (for those who don't know what I am talking about, hadiths are considered by Muslims to be statements or actions performed by Muhammad, as reported by his companions; shahih hadiths are those which are reported by several independent sources and thus are the ones which many Muslims put credence in, while da'if hadiths are those whose about whose provenance there are some doubts). The practice is outlawed among the Shiite branch of Islam. And I believe three of the four Islamic schools of jurisprudence are opposed to any form of FGM; the fourth allows slight trimming of the hood of the clitoris.</p> <p>Keep in mind that this is all from memory; I looked into this about a decade ago. But I'm inclined to believe that FGM is more a consequence of the local culture than the original religious tradition (though it can and has easily diffused to becoming a part of the local religious tradition) -- note, for instance, that FGM was practiced among Ethiopian Jews while not being part of Judaism per se, or the persistence of FGM even among Christians in Ghana.</p> Re 108:

I did look into this issue quite some time back. To the best of my recollection, clitoridectomy or other forms of FGM are not mentioned in the Quran. There are a couple of Hadiths which appear to be supportive of (or at least not opposed to) FGM, but these are considered to da’if (weak) and not shahih (strong) hadiths (for those who don’t know what I am talking about, hadiths are considered by Muslims to be statements or actions performed by Muhammad, as reported by his companions; shahih hadiths are those which are reported by several independent sources and thus are the ones which many Muslims put credence in, while da’if hadiths are those whose about whose provenance there are some doubts). The practice is outlawed among the Shiite branch of Islam. And I believe three of the four Islamic schools of jurisprudence are opposed to any form of FGM; the fourth allows slight trimming of the hood of the clitoris.

Keep in mind that this is all from memory; I looked into this about a decade ago. But I’m inclined to believe that FGM is more a consequence of the local culture than the original religious tradition (though it can and has easily diffused to becoming a part of the local religious tradition) — note, for instance, that FGM was practiced among Ethiopian Jews while not being part of Judaism per se, or the persistence of FGM even among Christians in Ghana.

]]>
By: chachaji http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-179914 chachaji Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:58:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-179914 <p>A gentle query to anyone who can clarify: - is the kind of clitoridectomy that Hirsi Ali underwent a specifically Islamic practice unambiguously sanctioned within the Quran or hadiths? I thought it was a 'custom' that pre-dated Islam and was continued even after the 'tribes' that practiced it were converted to Islam. While this is true of much that is passed on within revealed faiths - in this case, as far as I know, clitoridectomy is not universally practiced in every Islamic society, especially not as much in South Asian Islamic cultures, though male circumcision is. And while I would also guess that male circumcision started similarly as a 'tribal practice' - for whatever reason, it received new justification within codified Judaism and later Islam, and is practiced in both, including in South Asia. One piece of evidence supporting such a view - that this is a pre-Islamic practice - would be the fact that clitoridectomy is also practiced today in 'tribal cultures' that never were converted.</p> <p>If the overall view of clitoridectomy as a practice not sanctioned by Islam is true - then, while her outrage against clitoridectomy itself is justified, using <i>that</i> as a broad brush against Islam <i>in general</i> is questionable at best, though that does not by itself negate any other critique she might have regarding gender relations within Islam. But it also raises a more general point - to what extent are even those critiques applicable to Islam as Islam - and to what extent are they critiques of patriarchal societies in general?</p> A gentle query to anyone who can clarify: – is the kind of clitoridectomy that Hirsi Ali underwent a specifically Islamic practice unambiguously sanctioned within the Quran or hadiths? I thought it was a ‘custom’ that pre-dated Islam and was continued even after the ‘tribes’ that practiced it were converted to Islam. While this is true of much that is passed on within revealed faiths – in this case, as far as I know, clitoridectomy is not universally practiced in every Islamic society, especially not as much in South Asian Islamic cultures, though male circumcision is. And while I would also guess that male circumcision started similarly as a ‘tribal practice’ – for whatever reason, it received new justification within codified Judaism and later Islam, and is practiced in both, including in South Asia. One piece of evidence supporting such a view – that this is a pre-Islamic practice – would be the fact that clitoridectomy is also practiced today in ‘tribal cultures’ that never were converted.

If the overall view of clitoridectomy as a practice not sanctioned by Islam is true – then, while her outrage against clitoridectomy itself is justified, using that as a broad brush against Islam in general is questionable at best, though that does not by itself negate any other critique she might have regarding gender relations within Islam. But it also raises a more general point – to what extent are even those critiques applicable to Islam as Islam – and to what extent are they critiques of patriarchal societies in general?

]]>
By: najeeb http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-179895 najeeb Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:52:50 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-179895 <blockquote>this is somewhat a simplification... i think it is fair to say that over the past 1,500 years jews had an easier time in the muslim lands than the christian lands (where they were regularly expelled from domains) because of their codified status</blockquote> <p>You are good at nitpicking, razib. you start with my comment being simplification and then you agree to what i am saying. this is not a simplification. I am talking about the recorded history between jews and muslims and for the most part, jews had a better time with muslims than christians, ie, up until 20th century. compare your examples of yemen and iran to the violent expulsions of 1492 spain & portugal, from england in 1200s, various crusades etc.. the 20th century conflict has a lot to do with israel palestinian issue than anything else. this is not the thread about jews vs muslims, so i would stop on this now.</p> this is somewhat a simplification… i think it is fair to say that over the past 1,500 years jews had an easier time in the muslim lands than the christian lands (where they were regularly expelled from domains) because of their codified status

You are good at nitpicking, razib. you start with my comment being simplification and then you agree to what i am saying. this is not a simplification. I am talking about the recorded history between jews and muslims and for the most part, jews had a better time with muslims than christians, ie, up until 20th century. compare your examples of yemen and iran to the violent expulsions of 1492 spain & portugal, from england in 1200s, various crusades etc.. the 20th century conflict has a lot to do with israel palestinian issue than anything else. this is not the thread about jews vs muslims, so i would stop on this now.

]]>
By: somebody http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/27/tasleema_nasree/comment-page-3/#comment-179889 somebody Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:21:41 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4873#comment-179889 <blockquote>Al_Chutiya_for_debauchery wrote Hirsi Ali in one of her genocidal moods: Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam? Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.</blockquote> <p>I guess if you went through genital mutilation (like what <a href="http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=1221">happened to Ayaan Hirsi Ali</a>) you have a very different perspective of Islam:</p> <pre><code><i>Somali culture began to demand that Ayaan too become a submissive woman who scrubbed away her own personality and sexuality. When she was five years old, she was made “pure” by having her genitals hacked out with a knife. It was a simple process. Her grandmother and two of her friends pinned her down, pulled her legs apart, and knifed away her clitoris and labia. She remembers the sound even now – "like a butcher, snipping the fat off a piece of meat." The bleeding wound was sewn up, leaving a thick tissue of scarred flesh to form as her fleshy chastity belt. She could not walk for two weeks.</i> <i>Ayaan soon realised that in a culture so patriarchal it could not tolerate the existence of an unmaimed vagina, "I could never become an adult. I would always be a minor, my decisions made for me. But I wanted to become an individual, with a life of my own." </code></pre> <p></i></p> Al_Chutiya_for_debauchery wrote Hirsi Ali in one of her genocidal moods: Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam? Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.

I guess if you went through genital mutilation (like what happened to Ayaan Hirsi Ali) you have a very different perspective of Islam:

<i>Somali culture began to demand that Ayaan too become a submissive woman who scrubbed away her own personality and sexuality. When she was five years old, she was made “pure” by having her genitals hacked out with a knife. It was a simple process. Her grandmother and two of her friends pinned her down, pulled her legs apart, and knifed away her clitoris and labia. She remembers the sound even now – "like a butcher, snipping the fat off a piece of meat." The bleeding wound was sewn up, leaving a thick tissue of scarred flesh to form as her fleshy chastity belt. She could not walk for two weeks.</i>

<i>Ayaan soon realised that in a culture so patriarchal it could not tolerate the existence of an unmaimed vagina, "I could never become an adult. I would always be a minor, my decisions made for me. But I wanted to become an individual, with a life of my own."

]]>