I know this is completely off topic but just a friendly tip: if you want to get a welfare project financed check what the Ministry of Foreign affairs can do for you. I don’t know how they arrange things in America but I assume it’s not that different from Europe. Especially when you are a student like moi you can get subsidy for various of projects. Also write to pharmaceutical companies for donations. When I was younger the law here still allowed to deduct donations from the taxable income so back then they were more than willingly to donate and the money I needed was quickly raised. If the law in America still allows companies to deduct donations I wouldn’t hesitate to approach those companies!

(But if I opened my big trap way too soon and you already knew about this, please do consider this comment as non-existent )

other’s perception molds how some people think, and what you see as “self hate” or “collective thinking” is a way out of the niche you are placed in whether you like it or not.

True but should you reinforce what other people think by distance yourself from what is yours? I don’t think it’s that unfair to question the approach towards violence on the subcontinent in comparison to the approach of violence here.

How healty is it to profile with ‘morally inferior’ roots and claim that you fled from the horors of the subcontinent into the save arms of the West. Is it not in everybody’s interest to create a mental space where there is room to give the subcontinent more credit and put things in perspective instead of maintaining in a state of apathy.

i think there is no point harping on this side topic. can you find a way to help this woman? teach her to speak in a wider forum to help others rather than remain a victim? if so, do it. if not, find something else that is constructive. please don’t mope around and obsess over what others think.

I think obsess is big word here but you’re right the topic was already done. Just to clarify; my comment wasn’t necessarily directed at the opinions of others as the same sentiments pop-up in my head too. I don’t think I’ve ‘said it’ when I use the term selfhate but it’s more questioning my own motives within the desi-psyche who dictates the interactions in our society and affect us all. It’s confusing.

Everytime when you think you ‘figured it out’ 10 other comments will pop-up to tell you it ain’t so.

well, i have this game i play. when i meet someone who looks at me and then tells me in their introduction that s/he is a feminist, i count the number of sentences before i am accused—indirectly of course—of being a wife-beater, wife-burner (that i never got—if i burn her, how can i beat her as well?), and being pointed out of the current in-the-news story about how badly men in india behave.

1. i remember a friend of mine who had an arranged marriage and came back with his wife here. some of his “friends”—not a majority, but not a small number either—actually assumed she had had no say in it. they treated him like shit for a few days—vague insinuations on everything the poor couple did. and get this: his doctor even shouts at the guy and asks his wife how old she was when he married her.

2. xyz: “i don’t want to be cremated after i die”, turns to me and adds, “but anyway you all burn your women”. of course, when time came to donate to a charity—which educated little unburnt girls—that i was working for, not a cent from xyz. maybe because i am corrupt as well?

so here is all there is to it: it is the story of human history, people want to diss on others—out of racism, hate, jealousy, general troubles in life or what not. some ethnicities are easy prey, and we are one of them. if you are a desi guy, you could be doing all the good things you want, but to someone who doesn’t know, a blond swedish guy is a feminist and you burn your wife after taking dowry.

other’s perception molds how some people think, and what you see as “self hate” or “collective thinking” is a way out of the niche you are placed in whether you like it or not.

not that i am advocating that—personally i think you get ahead when you do as eric cartman does: “screw you guys, i am “. my insurance against racism is what i think of myself—if i think i am doing what my responsibilities are in helping others, i couldn’t care less what sjb, barack obama, kkk or osama bin laden thinks of me.

i think there is no point harping on this side topic. can you find a way to help this woman? teach her to speak in a wider forum to help others rather than remain a victim? if so, do it. if not, find something else that is constructive. please don’t mope around and obsess over what others think.

But that would seem logic. Not so long ago there was the Japanese ex-sex-slave and history denial controversy. I would really want to see what the outcome is when you would put all the high school history books in the world together. How true and just would the Indian, Pakistani, Palestinian, Israeli etc. be?

I’m not sure what the reason behind – the covering up of history /denial of crimes against humanity/selective media coverage are – but I assume it should have something to do with a collective self-esteem/self image and the economic benefits of preventing ‘bad advertising’ for a country.

Nobody wants to buy cookies from a murderer.

SO the invasion of Iraq and careless murder of its people or the 2 million dead vietnamese has nothing to do with american culture in general, it has to do with George Bush or LBJ and so is carefully contextualized. But this treatment is not given to the “lesser” folks who are “over there.

I’m not sure if I understood you but basically we are trapped in our own classifications and think far more collective than assumed?

I was thinking that when a civilian here commits outrageously brutal inhumane crimes he/she’s is classified either as a serial killer, mentally disturbed a gang member etc. but not as one of ‘us’/the normal civilians so that blame isn’t put upon ourselves and that is indeed so contradictory with what you mentioned in another post about the reactions of outrage against the Indian government, society, men etc.

How many rapists, serial killers, child abusers, football hooligans etc. evoke a collective outrage against the government or society here?

Maybe we desis’s possess a collective sentiment of misplaced self-hate. Whenever there’s a family gathering or a desi-get-together I can count on endless Uncle complaints and sighs about how corrupt, backwards, barbaric etc. things back in India are but some constructive criticism stays out. (Am I the only one who got thrown to death with the comment: ‘if only we would work together’)

Back to Chameli. How should you look at that? Failure of government policy? failure of male emancipation? as an individual act? a social problem that concerns us all? or should we also we be singing yeh hum naheen?

Or as Manju mentioned above what should be the response from the diaspora?

nonetheless, good smackdown #115

And how many people say things like: all white christians are brutal and violent and war-like, all catholics are child-rapists etc.

Very few and correctly so. But many interactors on this blog felt free to connect the atrocity against this women with indian culture and traditions in general.

Here are some sample quotes:

An example of the misogynist attitude held by many Indian men. Leave the men alone with their right to free speech but how dare a woman dissent, in public no less? stripping them is an act meant to remove their identity, their dignity and ultimately, their voice. The public beatings are also indicative of deep rooted hatred towards an entire sex, especially the focus on damaging her genitals. I sometimes wish to go back to that country, then something like this happens and I remember why I left in the first place.

OR

This is absolutely horrible. It just makes me so angry! India as a whole just needs to get its act together and have some sort of respect for ALL of its people–not just the rich males.

OR

disgusting. yet, those barbarians will go caught free – justice in India often exists only on paper.

Show me similar statements about US behavior in Vietnam or Irag OR the catholic church pedophilia. You wont find them from reasonable people anywhere.

As I have pointed out, the horrific atrocities that involve the west are rarely given the same treatment. For examples, consider the recent pedophilia within the catholic church or the free use of western airpower in civilian areas in Irag and Afghanistan. Almost no one will have the kind of stereotypical comment and reaction that you exhibited wrt Indian culture and society. So my suggestion for you is to spend some time asking yourself why this is so….

It is not so.

The peodophilia of the Catholic Church caused alot of reflection and commentary on the culture of religious societies that promote celibacy.

The Iraq war caused alot of reflection and commentary on the nature of testosterone fueled organized and corporate violent cultures like America.

The porn culture of America has caused alot of reflection and commentary on the nature of America’s male dominated media and sexuality.

I’ve yet to see any crime committed anywhere not have it’s environment and culture taken into account.

Criminal psychology is all about that – taking into account and analysing the criminal’s local and wider cultural (essentially psychological) environment that may have influenced him/her to commit the crime.

I disagree with you that individual actions do not matter because “you haven’t stopped the cause of this conflict”. Individual actions especially those demonstrating humanity and compassion often have great impact and may ultimately help with the big picture. And, yes, I agree that they dont amount to solving the “big” problem – jihadism, ethnic hierarchies, lack of law and order…

SJB

I was under the impression you had self-identified as “she”, if I am wrong, I am happy to deal with you as a he. My main goal here is to get folks like you to understand that you have been programmed with a two-track mindset: one reserved for the powerful – today mostly the west – and the other for “lesser” peoples and cultures. And that this often manifests in expressions of disgust and stereotyping for the “lesser” people based on a single story or incident.

As I have pointed out, the horrific atrocities that involve the west are rarely given the same treatment. For examples, consider the recent pedophilia within the catholic church or the free use of western airpower in civilian areas in Irag and Afghanistan. Almost no one will have the kind of stereotypical comment and reaction that you exhibited wrt Indian culture and society. So my suggestion for you is to spend some time asking yourself why this is so….

To the men who claim that they would’nt have stood by when such a crime was being committed, I would like to say, I don’t know if you are of an incredibly courageous nature but I suspect you’ve never been in such a situation where you could’ve done something. I’ve seen some situations where about 12 ppl have beaten up 1 person and nobody to help. This is very different to situations in the west. These are not frat boys or simple college kids. And the question that goes throught every man is “if I do something will I be the person to be beaten up?” And people never usually think how they can stop it. But all in all, heroics will not stop anything. You may have saved that particular person but you haven’t stopped the cause of this conflict.

Just something to think about.