Comments on: Pakistan as Illiberal Democracy? http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Sin http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-177052 Sin Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:43:34 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-177052 <p>Oh for the love of...</p> <p><em>sigh</em> We're perfectly fine over here, thank you very much. I suppose some of us might actually give a shit about this if it impacted our lives in any sort of meaningful way, but this is just standard. As a dedicated fan of the 80s, I'm rather enjoying reliving my youth, what with suspended constitutions and the like...</p> Oh for the love of…

sigh We’re perfectly fine over here, thank you very much. I suppose some of us might actually give a shit about this if it impacted our lives in any sort of meaningful way, but this is just standard. As a dedicated fan of the 80s, I’m rather enjoying reliving my youth, what with suspended constitutions and the like…

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By: DJ Drrrty Poonjabi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-177017 DJ Drrrty Poonjabi Sat, 10 Nov 2007 00:24:11 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-177017 <blockquote>Verrry hard to believe that the same people in Afghanistan and those areas in Pak used to ever be Buddhists.</blockquote> <p>Let me make it a little easier to believe:</p> <blockquote>Greco-Buddhism, sometimes spelt Graeco-Buddhism, is the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture and Buddhism, which developed between the 4th century BCE and the 5th century CE in the area modernly covered by Afghanistan and Pakistan. It is a cultural consequence of a long chain of interactions begun by the Greek forays into India from the time of Alexander the Great, carried further by the establishment of Indo-Greek rule in the area for several centuries, and extended during flourishing of the Hellenized empire of the Kushans. Greco-Buddhism influenced the artistic (and perhaps the conceptual) development of Buddhism, particularly Mahayana Buddhism,[1] before Buddhism was adopted in Central and Northeastern Asia, from the 1st century CE, ultimately spreading to China, Korea and Japan.</blockquote> <p>[<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism">link</a>]</p> Verrry hard to believe that the same people in Afghanistan and those areas in Pak used to ever be Buddhists.

Let me make it a little easier to believe:

Greco-Buddhism, sometimes spelt Graeco-Buddhism, is the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture and Buddhism, which developed between the 4th century BCE and the 5th century CE in the area modernly covered by Afghanistan and Pakistan. It is a cultural consequence of a long chain of interactions begun by the Greek forays into India from the time of Alexander the Great, carried further by the establishment of Indo-Greek rule in the area for several centuries, and extended during flourishing of the Hellenized empire of the Kushans. Greco-Buddhism influenced the artistic (and perhaps the conceptual) development of Buddhism, particularly Mahayana Buddhism,[1] before Buddhism was adopted in Central and Northeastern Asia, from the 1st century CE, ultimately spreading to China, Korea and Japan.

[link]

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By: sakshi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-176933 sakshi Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:05:55 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-176933 <blockquote>If Mush and the Pak army lose power, India is in grave danger from the Taliban. The Taliban are making major gains into Pak territory, which is a crucial buffer zone for India. If the Taliban gain nukes, you can bet it's going to be pretty rough going for India.</blockquote> <p>Just to be clear, India is <b>not</b> in grave danger if Mush and the army loses power in Pakistan. It all depends on who they lose power to. If it is by democratic vote, there is no problem. However, if there is a revolt of some sort against Musharraf and the Islamists come to power (the only way they can come to power is by revolution and the ensuing chaos: its unlikely they will win an election), then that would be grave danger, not only for India, but the world.</p> <p>That is why it is important the US does not prop up Musharraf so long that a pressure-cooker like situation builds up. Ali Etaraz has an <a href="http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ali_eteraz/2007/11/pakistan_prince_of_denmark.html">interesting article</a> on the possibilty of an Iranian type revolution in Pakistan.</p> If Mush and the Pak army lose power, India is in grave danger from the Taliban. The Taliban are making major gains into Pak territory, which is a crucial buffer zone for India. If the Taliban gain nukes, you can bet it’s going to be pretty rough going for India.

Just to be clear, India is not in grave danger if Mush and the army loses power in Pakistan. It all depends on who they lose power to. If it is by democratic vote, there is no problem. However, if there is a revolt of some sort against Musharraf and the Islamists come to power (the only way they can come to power is by revolution and the ensuing chaos: its unlikely they will win an election), then that would be grave danger, not only for India, but the world.

That is why it is important the US does not prop up Musharraf so long that a pressure-cooker like situation builds up. Ali Etaraz has an interesting article on the possibilty of an Iranian type revolution in Pakistan.

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By: sakshi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-176921 sakshi Fri, 09 Nov 2007 18:28:16 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-176921 <blockquote>If Mush and the Pak army lose power, India is in grave danger from the Taliban. The Taliban are making major gains into Pak territory, which is a crucial buffer zone for India. If the Taliban gain nukes, you can bet it's going to be pretty rough going for India.</blockquote> <p>The problem is, there is no evidence that Musharraf is in any position to do anything about it. He cut a deal with Taliban leaders in South Waziristan a year ago, which many people saw as a sellout to their demands. The way things are going around Swat, I won't be surprised if he cut a similar deal there too. Of course there'd be some face-saving, and the deal will be made to look better for the army and US than it actually may be. But I don't think the US has a choice: it has tied itself too close to Musharraf.</p> <p>The vibe in Pakistan right now seems to be the Musharraf is killing Pakistanis to support US interests, which weakens the amount of force he can use on the fundamentalists. Also he cannot afford to alienate the Islamic parties too much, for fear of strengthening Benazir. The best thing for Pakistan would be a new leader who is able to distance himself/herself from the US and project the struggle in Pakistan as a struggle for the security and future of the Pakistani people. He/she can then make a strong go at the fundamentalists. But the leader would have to sacrifice American interests in the short term: the militants that are pushed out of Pakistan might move their activities to Afghanistan.</p> If Mush and the Pak army lose power, India is in grave danger from the Taliban. The Taliban are making major gains into Pak territory, which is a crucial buffer zone for India. If the Taliban gain nukes, you can bet it’s going to be pretty rough going for India.

The problem is, there is no evidence that Musharraf is in any position to do anything about it. He cut a deal with Taliban leaders in South Waziristan a year ago, which many people saw as a sellout to their demands. The way things are going around Swat, I won’t be surprised if he cut a similar deal there too. Of course there’d be some face-saving, and the deal will be made to look better for the army and US than it actually may be. But I don’t think the US has a choice: it has tied itself too close to Musharraf.

The vibe in Pakistan right now seems to be the Musharraf is killing Pakistanis to support US interests, which weakens the amount of force he can use on the fundamentalists. Also he cannot afford to alienate the Islamic parties too much, for fear of strengthening Benazir. The best thing for Pakistan would be a new leader who is able to distance himself/herself from the US and project the struggle in Pakistan as a struggle for the security and future of the Pakistani people. He/she can then make a strong go at the fundamentalists. But the leader would have to sacrifice American interests in the short term: the militants that are pushed out of Pakistan might move their activities to Afghanistan.

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By: Arjun http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-176860 Arjun Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:53:30 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-176860 <p>Verrry hard to believe that the same people in Afghanistan and those areas in Pak used to ever be Buddhists.</p> Verrry hard to believe that the same people in Afghanistan and those areas in Pak used to ever be Buddhists.

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By: DJ Drrrty Poonjabi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-176855 DJ Drrrty Poonjabi Fri, 09 Nov 2007 07:18:08 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-176855 <blockquote>n Swat, for instance, Fazlullah’s band, backed by fighters from Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and Waziristan, has not only driven out government officials, but has also shut down almost all girls schools, set fire to shops selling Indian and western music, beaten up barbers shaving beards, and recently, blown up a 1,300-year-old carving of a seated Buddha cut into a 45-metre-high rock face — one of Swat’s top tourist attractions.</blockquote> <p>I'm hoping those philistines conveniently ignore the Archaeological Museum in Swat, which houses a <a href="http://www.onmarkproductions.com/assets/images/footprints-buddha-miho-musuem-TN.jpg">footprint of Buddha </a>dating back to at least the 3rd century..</p> n Swat, for instance, Fazlullah’s band, backed by fighters from Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and Waziristan, has not only driven out government officials, but has also shut down almost all girls schools, set fire to shops selling Indian and western music, beaten up barbers shaving beards, and recently, blown up a 1,300-year-old carving of a seated Buddha cut into a 45-metre-high rock face — one of Swat’s top tourist attractions.

I’m hoping those philistines conveniently ignore the Archaeological Museum in Swat, which houses a footprint of Buddha dating back to at least the 3rd century..

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By: sunil http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-176853 sunil Fri, 09 Nov 2007 06:55:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-176853 <p>If Mush and the Pak army lose power, India is in grave danger from the Taliban. The Taliban are making major gains into Pak territory, which is a crucial buffer zone for India. If the Taliban gain nukes, you can bet it's going to be pretty rough going for India.</p> <p>Check this article out from the Times of India: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2527177.cms</p> <p>ISLAMABAD/NEW DELHI: Pakistan is fast losing chunks of its territory to pro-Taliban rebels. On Wednesday, it lost yet another town in the picturesque valley of Swat to the rebels with which, say officials privately, as much as 70% of the valley’s 94-km stretch is under the control of Mullah Fazlullah’s band of automatic-toting militants.</p> <p>Reports said that the militants have taken control of key towns like Matta, Khazakhela, Madyan and Charbagh.</p> <p>According to one agency report, the town of Kalam, too, has fallen to the militants after dozens of paramilitary troops and policemen surrendered their weapons. Before capturing Kalam, the militants captured Bahrain, a strategic town poised over the raging Swat river.</p> <p>At a number of government offices in these towns, the Pakistani flag was brought down and replaced by black-and-white flags, reminiscent of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. By Wednesday evening, Fazlullah’s private FM radio station (because of which the cleric is known as "Mullah Radio") was proclaiming the territorial gains.</p> <p>The significance of Pakistan losing territory in Swat lies in the fact that this is not the country’s tribal fringes; rather it has been a settled area of Pakistan, just a few hours drive northwest of Islamabad.</p> <p>The seemingly relentless march in Swat of Fazlullah’s Tehreek Nafaz-e-Shariat Muhammadi (the Movement for Enforcement of Islamic Laws), one of a clutch of pro-Taliban groups in Pakistan, represents the real challenge faced by Pervez Musharraf. Radical groups have spread out into the heart of Pakistan from the troubled tribal belt bordering Afghanistan, and are threatening to throw the country into Taliban-style autarky.</p> <p>In Swat, for instance, Fazlullah’s band, backed by fighters from Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and Waziristan, has not only driven out government officials, but has also shut down almost all girls schools, set fire to shops selling Indian and western music, beaten up barbers shaving beards, and recently, blown up a 1,300-year-old carving of a seated Buddha cut into a 45-metre-high rock face — one of Swat’s top tourist attractions. Ironically, Swat is an ancient seat of enlightenment, marked with planned towns and spiritual renaissance.</p> If Mush and the Pak army lose power, India is in grave danger from the Taliban. The Taliban are making major gains into Pak territory, which is a crucial buffer zone for India. If the Taliban gain nukes, you can bet it’s going to be pretty rough going for India.

Check this article out from the Times of India: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2527177.cms

ISLAMABAD/NEW DELHI: Pakistan is fast losing chunks of its territory to pro-Taliban rebels. On Wednesday, it lost yet another town in the picturesque valley of Swat to the rebels with which, say officials privately, as much as 70% of the valley’s 94-km stretch is under the control of Mullah Fazlullah’s band of automatic-toting militants.

Reports said that the militants have taken control of key towns like Matta, Khazakhela, Madyan and Charbagh.

According to one agency report, the town of Kalam, too, has fallen to the militants after dozens of paramilitary troops and policemen surrendered their weapons. Before capturing Kalam, the militants captured Bahrain, a strategic town poised over the raging Swat river.

At a number of government offices in these towns, the Pakistani flag was brought down and replaced by black-and-white flags, reminiscent of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. By Wednesday evening, Fazlullah’s private FM radio station (because of which the cleric is known as “Mullah Radio”) was proclaiming the territorial gains.

The significance of Pakistan losing territory in Swat lies in the fact that this is not the country’s tribal fringes; rather it has been a settled area of Pakistan, just a few hours drive northwest of Islamabad.

The seemingly relentless march in Swat of Fazlullah’s Tehreek Nafaz-e-Shariat Muhammadi (the Movement for Enforcement of Islamic Laws), one of a clutch of pro-Taliban groups in Pakistan, represents the real challenge faced by Pervez Musharraf. Radical groups have spread out into the heart of Pakistan from the troubled tribal belt bordering Afghanistan, and are threatening to throw the country into Taliban-style autarky.

In Swat, for instance, Fazlullah’s band, backed by fighters from Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and Waziristan, has not only driven out government officials, but has also shut down almost all girls schools, set fire to shops selling Indian and western music, beaten up barbers shaving beards, and recently, blown up a 1,300-year-old carving of a seated Buddha cut into a 45-metre-high rock face — one of Swat’s top tourist attractions. Ironically, Swat is an ancient seat of enlightenment, marked with planned towns and spiritual renaissance.

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By: dravidian lurker http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-176846 dravidian lurker Fri, 09 Nov 2007 06:01:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-176846 <p>all citizens of pakistan, i bring you great tidings. your surge towards modernity and self-determination has just been hastened since your beloved leader has put bhutto under house arrest, in order to protect you from making the bad choices that you have a predilection for. rejoice.</p> all citizens of pakistan, i bring you great tidings. your surge towards modernity and self-determination has just been hastened since your beloved leader has put bhutto under house arrest, in order to protect you from making the bad choices that you have a predilection for. rejoice.

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By: melbourne desi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-176844 melbourne desi Fri, 09 Nov 2007 05:56:19 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-176844 <blockquote>BTW you are forgetting we live in a Constitutional Monarchy, where the head of state is decided by an ovarian lottery. </blockquote> <p>True. god save the queen - damn!!</p> BTW you are forgetting we live in a Constitutional Monarchy, where the head of state is decided by an ovarian lottery.

True. god save the queen – damn!!

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By: melbourne desi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/11/06/pakistan_as_ill/comment-page-2/#comment-176842 melbourne desi Fri, 09 Nov 2007 05:50:06 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4846#comment-176842 <blockquote>Attendance is compulsory voting isn't. </blockquote> <p>samir - you are quite right</p> Attendance is compulsory voting isn’t.

samir – you are quite right

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