Comments on: Outsourcing Spin and Counterspin http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Floridian http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164159 Floridian Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:53:46 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164159 <p>The US economy is so deeply researched and the data so readily available that we don't have to go far to bring some desperately needed facts into the debate. Let's look at the last 20 years, a crucial timeline during which several calamities hit the US society very hard. Contrary to popular belief, they did not hit the US economy at all.</p> <p>The first blow was the offshoring of manufacturing, turning once productive and prosperous regions into Rust Belt, eliminating half the factory jobs, forcing $18 per hour auto workers to seek $8 per hour service jobs. The other calamity was the growing foreign trade imbalance, which meant we started to produce less and consume more, or as Lee Iacocca put it, "We became a colony." A colony exports raw material, in our case, steel, and imports finished goods, in our case, cars. The next wave of assault, thanks to new technology like computers and the Internet, both cheap and quickly implemented anywhere in the world, was the outsourcing of non-manufacturing jobs. All of a sudden, nobody was safe. One could be a highly trained radiologist in the US and still lose work to an Indian radiologist who is grabbing X-rays taken last night in America off the Internet, making a diagnosis and e-mailing reports back to America.</p> <p>Follow this link. (Sorry, I don't know how to make it clickable.) http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h08.html During the same disastrous timeline of 20 years, the Median Household Income (not average but median) grew 14% in 2006 dollars after adjusting for the CPI. This is irrefutable data. Averages can mask huge income disparities but medians portray a fairer income distribution. The year-to-year figures are standardized to 2006 dollars and adjusted for CPI, which mean that all the variables are squeezed out to present an apple-to-apple comparison between 1984 and 2006.</p> <p>Of course, the "widening income gap" theorists would like to jump in at this point. To allay their fears, let's look at what the economists call Gini coefficients, a measure of income disparity within a country. The Gini coefficient for the US was 0.38 in 1984 and 0.42 in 2000. The higher the score, the wider the gap. A coefficient of 1.00 would indicate that one person has all the wealth, whereas 0.00 would mean that all the people have the same wealth. The GO rose a slight 0.04, from 0.38 to 0.42, over the same timeline that the vaunted US middle class supposedly shrunk drastically. Follow this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient</p> <p>There will be many quibbles with the data, and I am trying to anticipate a few. 1. Household incomes rose because more spouses started to work. Yes, but there are more one-income households today, thanks to rising divorce rates. One cancels out the other. You can mine the US Census figures if you would like. 2. Today's technology driven outsourcing is different from the manufacturing driven outsourcing of the past. How precisely? And technological advantages cut both ways. 3. The income and income distribution data cannot possibly reveal the many pockets of misery inflicted by outsourcing. Of course! Who can be insensitive to the plight of a 50-year old IT guy who brought home $100,000 a year, gave his family a decent life, still has two kids in college and a huge mortgage but just lost his job to an Indian software company. This 50-year old doesn't have enough time left to learn new languages, and even if he did, he can't afford to work at the Indian programmer's salary. At age 55, I can sympathize with the worker that is beyond re-directing and rehabilitating for reasons of age if not educational level and other socioeconomic handicaps.</p> <p>But facts are facts. Personally, I want to preserve every US job. Intellectually, I need to take a stand on outsourcing.</p> The US economy is so deeply researched and the data so readily available that we don’t have to go far to bring some desperately needed facts into the debate. Let’s look at the last 20 years, a crucial timeline during which several calamities hit the US society very hard. Contrary to popular belief, they did not hit the US economy at all.

The first blow was the offshoring of manufacturing, turning once productive and prosperous regions into Rust Belt, eliminating half the factory jobs, forcing $18 per hour auto workers to seek $8 per hour service jobs. The other calamity was the growing foreign trade imbalance, which meant we started to produce less and consume more, or as Lee Iacocca put it, “We became a colony.” A colony exports raw material, in our case, steel, and imports finished goods, in our case, cars. The next wave of assault, thanks to new technology like computers and the Internet, both cheap and quickly implemented anywhere in the world, was the outsourcing of non-manufacturing jobs. All of a sudden, nobody was safe. One could be a highly trained radiologist in the US and still lose work to an Indian radiologist who is grabbing X-rays taken last night in America off the Internet, making a diagnosis and e-mailing reports back to America.

Follow this link. (Sorry, I don’t know how to make it clickable.) http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h08.html During the same disastrous timeline of 20 years, the Median Household Income (not average but median) grew 14% in 2006 dollars after adjusting for the CPI. This is irrefutable data. Averages can mask huge income disparities but medians portray a fairer income distribution. The year-to-year figures are standardized to 2006 dollars and adjusted for CPI, which mean that all the variables are squeezed out to present an apple-to-apple comparison between 1984 and 2006.

Of course, the “widening income gap” theorists would like to jump in at this point. To allay their fears, let’s look at what the economists call Gini coefficients, a measure of income disparity within a country. The Gini coefficient for the US was 0.38 in 1984 and 0.42 in 2000. The higher the score, the wider the gap. A coefficient of 1.00 would indicate that one person has all the wealth, whereas 0.00 would mean that all the people have the same wealth. The GO rose a slight 0.04, from 0.38 to 0.42, over the same timeline that the vaunted US middle class supposedly shrunk drastically. Follow this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

There will be many quibbles with the data, and I am trying to anticipate a few. 1. Household incomes rose because more spouses started to work. Yes, but there are more one-income households today, thanks to rising divorce rates. One cancels out the other. You can mine the US Census figures if you would like. 2. Today’s technology driven outsourcing is different from the manufacturing driven outsourcing of the past. How precisely? And technological advantages cut both ways. 3. The income and income distribution data cannot possibly reveal the many pockets of misery inflicted by outsourcing. Of course! Who can be insensitive to the plight of a 50-year old IT guy who brought home $100,000 a year, gave his family a decent life, still has two kids in college and a huge mortgage but just lost his job to an Indian software company. This 50-year old doesn’t have enough time left to learn new languages, and even if he did, he can’t afford to work at the Indian programmer’s salary. At age 55, I can sympathize with the worker that is beyond re-directing and rehabilitating for reasons of age if not educational level and other socioeconomic handicaps.

But facts are facts. Personally, I want to preserve every US job. Intellectually, I need to take a stand on outsourcing.

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By: KarmaByte http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164158 KarmaByte Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:46:05 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164158 <blockquote>Those who claim that the middle class in US will vanish mistakenly assume globalization to be a zero sum game. If the west gets poorer only than the developing world gets richer ... which is inherently flawed logic.</blockquote> <p>Not that I think it is a zero sum game but it certainly is not a everybody can win scenario. The resources on earth are limited and we haven't figured out how to exploit resources in the outer space yet.</p> <p>I keep getting reminded of the scenario depicted in <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0434409/">V for Vendetta</a> about the US! I wonder what's to happen.</p> Those who claim that the middle class in US will vanish mistakenly assume globalization to be a zero sum game. If the west gets poorer only than the developing world gets richer … which is inherently flawed logic.

Not that I think it is a zero sum game but it certainly is not a everybody can win scenario. The resources on earth are limited and we haven’t figured out how to exploit resources in the outer space yet.

I keep getting reminded of the scenario depicted in V for Vendetta about the US! I wonder what’s to happen.

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By: RC http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164138 RC Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:49:29 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164138 <p>Those who claim that the middle class in US will vanish mistakenly assume globalization to be a zero sum game. If the west gets poorer only than the developing world gets richer ... which is inherently flawed logic.</p> Those who claim that the middle class in US will vanish mistakenly assume globalization to be a zero sum game. If the west gets poorer only than the developing world gets richer … which is inherently flawed logic.

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By: melbourne desi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164135 melbourne desi Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:41:59 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164135 <p>Murali - whats your point ? Mine was clear - SM is a house with rules about what can and cannot be said. This includes generalizations about certain groups (positive and negative).</p> <p>M Nam - bloody oath. The pyramid is the most common social structure. Good call on percentages. I dont suppose pre- WWI life was easy.</p> <p>Branch Dravidian - middle class life as exists in the western world will probably vanish. I wonder how this will play out in Scandinavia. Will there be a revolution ? Sadly I suspect that I will see it in my lifetime :(</p> <p>Puli - you are right. Ireland has been at the forefront of the offshoring boom for several years. Whinging begins only when the foreigner gets more.</p> <p>I suppose being poor in the Western world sucks more than being poor in the Third World.</p> Murali – whats your point ? Mine was clear – SM is a house with rules about what can and cannot be said. This includes generalizations about certain groups (positive and negative).

M Nam – bloody oath. The pyramid is the most common social structure. Good call on percentages. I dont suppose pre- WWI life was easy.

Branch Dravidian – middle class life as exists in the western world will probably vanish. I wonder how this will play out in Scandinavia. Will there be a revolution ? Sadly I suspect that I will see it in my lifetime :(

Puli – you are right. Ireland has been at the forefront of the offshoring boom for several years. Whinging begins only when the foreigner gets more.

I suppose being poor in the Western world sucks more than being poor in the Third World.

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By: Vikram http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164104 Vikram Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:09:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164104 <blockquote> I will paraphrase a line of Mark Twain's, "The reports of the US economy's demise are wildly exaggerated." </blockquote> <p>Mark Twain also said this:</p> <blockquote> "...But it was impossible to save the Great Republic. She was rotten to the heart. Lust of conquest had long ago done its work; trampling upon the helpless abroad had taught her, by a natural process, to endure with apathy the like at home; multitudes who had applauded the crushing of other people's liberties, lived to suffer for their mistake in their own persons. The government was irrevocably in the hands of the prodigiously rich and their hangers-on; the suffrage was become a mere machine, which they used as they chose. There was no principle but commercialism, no patriotism but of the pocket." </blockquote> <p>Time will tell which of those two quotes will come to pass.</p> I will paraphrase a line of Mark Twain’s, “The reports of the US economy’s demise are wildly exaggerated.”

Mark Twain also said this:

“…But it was impossible to save the Great Republic. She was rotten to the heart. Lust of conquest had long ago done its work; trampling upon the helpless abroad had taught her, by a natural process, to endure with apathy the like at home; multitudes who had applauded the crushing of other people’s liberties, lived to suffer for their mistake in their own persons. The government was irrevocably in the hands of the prodigiously rich and their hangers-on; the suffrage was become a mere machine, which they used as they chose. There was no principle but commercialism, no patriotism but of the pocket.”

Time will tell which of those two quotes will come to pass.

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By: Puliogre in da USA http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164103 Puliogre in da USA Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:08:46 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164103 <blockquote>now, there was little subtlety to the racism and stereotypes being thrown about in the middle classes and in the press. </blockquote> <p>yeah...no one talks about ireland when they talk about outsourcing. a white dude competing is expected. they are white. therefore, its good that they are getting on their feet. the brown ude, well...he "stole" "our" jobs.</p> now, there was little subtlety to the racism and stereotypes being thrown about in the middle classes and in the press.

yeah…no one talks about ireland when they talk about outsourcing. a white dude competing is expected. they are white. therefore, its good that they are getting on their feet. the brown ude, well…he “stole” “our” jobs.

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By: risible http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164100 risible Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:05:34 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164100 <p>I recall during the last outsourcing "crisis" - in the 1980s, the NY/NJ Port Authority suddenly went nativist and cancelled a Japanese contract to supply its PATH subway system with new cars. Like now, there was little subtlety to the racism and stereotypes being thrown about in the middle classes and in the press. The Port Authority soon came to understand that no company in America was able to make such subway cars, and quietly reinstated the contract.</p> I recall during the last outsourcing “crisis” – in the 1980s, the NY/NJ Port Authority suddenly went nativist and cancelled a Japanese contract to supply its PATH subway system with new cars. Like now, there was little subtlety to the racism and stereotypes being thrown about in the middle classes and in the press. The Port Authority soon came to understand that no company in America was able to make such subway cars, and quietly reinstated the contract.

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By: RC http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164097 RC Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:46:02 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164097 <p>I hope people keep in mind that US is a $11 trillion economy which grew at 4% last quarter. The next closest economy is Japan which is a country smaller than the suburb I live in :-). As usual Mr. Floridian's wisdom</p> <blockquote>I will paraphrase a line of Mark Twain's, "The reports of the US economy's demise are wildly exaggerated."</blockquote> <p>is right on the money.</p> <p>With falling US $ and the benign neglect of it from the fed, it appears that second chapter in outsourcing story is about to start. China will not be able to keep its currency at artificially low levels for long. At which point both India and China will discover (India will do that earlier) their domestic market and dynamics of outsourcing will change.</p> I hope people keep in mind that US is a $11 trillion economy which grew at 4% last quarter. The next closest economy is Japan which is a country smaller than the suburb I live in :-) . As usual Mr. Floridian’s wisdom

I will paraphrase a line of Mark Twain’s, “The reports of the US economy’s demise are wildly exaggerated.”

is right on the money.

With falling US $ and the benign neglect of it from the fed, it appears that second chapter in outsourcing story is about to start. China will not be able to keep its currency at artificially low levels for long. At which point both India and China will discover (India will do that earlier) their domestic market and dynamics of outsourcing will change.

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By: MoorNam http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164074 MoorNam Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:37:56 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164074 <p>BD writes: >><i>I'm guessing that the American middle class will contract back to its pre-WW II state... </i></p> <p>Correct. But first it will go to its pre-WW I(one state), which was much lower. Then it will slowly go back up and stabilise to ~30% of the population. The size of the American (and Western European) middle class of the last forty years is an aberration from the historic norm and will correct itself to much lower levels. This will be accompanied by rising standards in Asia(incl. India) and Eastern Europe, then in Africa. When this is all over, every country in the world will have the same class composition: ~10% rich, ~30% middle and ~60% poor - just as it has been throughout history. The big difference will be in the <u>cause</u> of the class divide: Since the dawn of civilisation, ownership of land, water and muscle power determined the person's class, in the future it will be ownership of superior intellect, organisation skills and muscle power that determines the person's class.</p> <p>Muscle power ain't going away...</p> <p>M. Nam</p> BD writes: >>I’m guessing that the American middle class will contract back to its pre-WW II state…

Correct. But first it will go to its pre-WW I(one state), which was much lower. Then it will slowly go back up and stabilise to ~30% of the population. The size of the American (and Western European) middle class of the last forty years is an aberration from the historic norm and will correct itself to much lower levels. This will be accompanied by rising standards in Asia(incl. India) and Eastern Europe, then in Africa. When this is all over, every country in the world will have the same class composition: ~10% rich, ~30% middle and ~60% poor – just as it has been throughout history. The big difference will be in the cause of the class divide: Since the dawn of civilisation, ownership of land, water and muscle power determined the person’s class, in the future it will be ownership of superior intellect, organisation skills and muscle power that determines the person’s class.

Muscle power ain’t going away…

M. Nam

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By: Branch Dravidian http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/09/04/outsourcing_spi/comment-page-2/#comment-164067 Branch Dravidian Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:13:49 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4701#comment-164067 <blockquote>Where do you see the American middle-class in a generation? In your view, will America be more like India is today (small elite, smallish to moderate middle-class, and large poor class)? Or will we still be a predominantly middle-class country with an overall high standard of living?</blockquote> <p>I'm guessing that the American middle class will contract back to its pre-WW II state... composed mainly of professionals, managers and small businessmen. Most of the blue collar workers currently enjoying middle class lifestyles will see their standard of living decrease. There will be a large working class but probably not as much extreme poverty as currently exists in India. A better comparison might be late 19th/early 20th century Britain. It may take more than a generation to reach that end state, however...</p> Where do you see the American middle-class in a generation? In your view, will America be more like India is today (small elite, smallish to moderate middle-class, and large poor class)? Or will we still be a predominantly middle-class country with an overall high standard of living?

I’m guessing that the American middle class will contract back to its pre-WW II state… composed mainly of professionals, managers and small businessmen. Most of the blue collar workers currently enjoying middle class lifestyles will see their standard of living decrease. There will be a large working class but probably not as much extreme poverty as currently exists in India. A better comparison might be late 19th/early 20th century Britain. It may take more than a generation to reach that end state, however…

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