there are a lot of theories floating around here like ‘atheist’ and hard line religiosity etc, but for me as an Indian no theory is important than the” sovereignty and integrity of India”. And this is where I found problem with religious conversions.

I belive that India is secular, democratic because of its majority population are Hindus. All other states and territories who’s population is minority religion are having movements to separate with India, weather its Kashmir or north-eastern states.

obviously not. I’ve known a few non-white (Indian, Filipino) missionaries in my time. What i’d like to do is take the debate past the anecdotal stage and into the empirical.

what I was trying to do, was set up, in the absence of hard data (though I will endeavour to find it), a logical framework for deducing whether material gain is a major factor in the conversion of low-caste/tribal peoples, especially in rural areas, to Christianity.

I suspect, with the English-speaking protestant (not main-line churches but those now designated in mainstream discourse as Evangelistic) missionary efforts, that a significant portion of those conversions are facilitated not by reasoned, theological discourse, but a desire on the part of the converted to improve their economic and social standing within Indian society.

While those things aren’t bad, I’d classify them as “activities” rather than the precise physical actions I was referring to. For example, it could be placing two palms together or it could be sticking one finger in your ear and the other up your nostril, the point is, it’s a physical action that’s repeated enough times to bring about an internal state (one of peace & stillness), somewhat similar to the theories of NLP. Although NLP follows techniques to bring out a multitude of states.

i think the underlying assumption here is that low-caste Indians, especially in rural areas, are unlikely to comprehend English at a level that would facilitate conversion based purely on the missionary’s theological arguments.

if this is true, then it is likely that the desire for greater material status/posessions is a major factor in the low-caste Indian’s decision to convert.

It would also jibe with the current craze in missionary work: the method of planting a church, “seeding” some Bibles, giving a good show to the natives and then leaving.

I wasn’t aware.

have you read Goleman’s book?

No, but I will check it out.

Rather they must be told, yes, told to do something. anything, whether thats putting red powder in the center of their foreheads, or whatever, but some physical act, that’s symbolic of something. Something that upon repeated action will bring about an internal silence and calmness, not because of what the action is, but because of what it symbolizes

I haven’t thought of it that way. I need to think about it on my own.

But my initial, immediate response: some symbols/actions I would like my children to pick up and remember me by are some of those things I listed in comment #99. They do these things with me, as and when they can, as their age allows them to–whether it is watering my herbs or reading before bed or even trying to do yoga. I hope that these family rituals play the same role…

This isn’t the first time you’ve used the phrase, have you read Goleman’s book?

My kids, even though they belong to a different cohort and are given a different set of variables in life (education, opportunity, choices, _____), should understand and respect where they came from, and be able to accept at face value those people (peers and previous generations) who still rely on their versions of faith to pull them through difficult patches.

I’m not even sure what your original point was, but I guess my point was for a four or five year old, one can’t sit them down and say, “There are so many choices in the world, and you can do any of them and make sure you respect them all” Rather they must be told, yes, told to do something. anything, whether thats putting red powder in the center of their foreheads, or whatever, but some physical act, that’s symbolic of something. Something that upon repeated action will bring about an internal silence and calmness, not because of what the action is, but because of what it symbolizes

All I asked for is the numbers on who converts and from what caste. I’ve just noted down my observations and it is your assumption that my observation is just limited to my friends from the same socio-economic class, not mine. I have mingled with people from different castes and different classes and i do have close relatives in a village that I visit often. I think I have a somewhat balanced perspective and not generalising based ONLY on my experiences.

So, Christianity as “liberation theology” only at best gives hope and the impetus to convert, but afterward it’s the same old situation. As one should expect, since it’s the same society. (This observation obviously applies no matter which religion and which society we are talking about.)

Without disagreeing on this point, I want to also bring up the idea of confounding factors that influence ‘success’ or predict ‘leadership’ roles–factors such as inter-generational interactions in a family that has been edcuated for generations and groomed its sons for leadership roles.

A similar situation is that oft brought-out example of women and cooking that I’ve been asked more than once: Women have cooked and fed their families for generations and generations, but why is it that there are so few world-renowned women chefs? To which I reply, perhaps the women weren’t groomed to go out and make money or a career out of their cooking skills.

Can something similar also contribute to this underrepresentation of lower castes in the administration? I am wondering…without denying that casteism exists among Indian Christians, generally speaking.