Neither do we, especially since we are long past discussing things which are on-topic. Thanks, all and fare-thee-well.

The jatts who have remained hindus, such as the ones in Haryana are considered Sudras and treated as such by the upper castes.

BULLSHIT. Jats in Haryana are the socially and economically dominant group…combined with a rather aggressive temperament, so NO ONE treats them like ‘sudras’. The days of treating brahmins like royalty are long over anyway even in other parts of India. Who else would you like to define as ‘upper caste’ who treats Jats poorly? Baniyas? That’s a joke. Rajputs? The Rajput presence in Haryana is miniscule. You just have an ideology to defend at any cost despite all the evidence against it, and you have some sort of an axe to grind.

You should be embarrassed for making such a silly argument. You can consider a korean whatever the hell you want it will not apply to him because he does not subscribe to your ideology.

That’s exactly my point…that Jatts did not subscribe to the ideology you describe. And you can’t simply say that ‘since they were Hindus they AUTOMATICALLY must have subscribed wholeheartedly to the caste system’. Some nuance, please. Jatts as Hindus were not the same as Tamil Brahmins as Hindus. Entirely different society, culture, and power dynamics. Hindus are not all the same throughout India. You’re approaching this whole thing ass backwards…first you come up with an ideology (that all Hindus by definition did X) and then you try to force that ideology on actual real living breathing human beings who show several orders of magnitude more complexity than your simple equation, and it falls completely on its face.

The fact that they are still ashamed of the caste status of their ancestors

You don’t actually KNOW any Jatts, do you.

Anyway, I have seen discussions like this really get out of control on other forums in the past, so maybe it’s time to consider closing this thread (please let Prema have the last word of course).

Casteism didnt originate in modern times, in the last 600-700 years, in case you and Amitabh didnt know that. What was the caste of the Jatts when they were/are hindus? Thats the point. Most Jatts converted to Sikhism or Islam many centuries ago. Neither sikhism nor islam assigns caste to its followers. So if muslim or sikh jatts want to boast about their caste they should be reminded of their lowly origins. That they are dominant in their villages now doesnt change the fact that they were sudras when they were hindus. As the hindu jatts of Haryana still are.

I was told anecdotally by relatives is that one of the reasons Jatts are so “low caste” is because they didn’t fully buy into the caste system to begin with when they moved into the Indus River Valley.

This is really the height of naivety. Dont fall for such absurd anecdotes which are inspired by shame of lowly origins. If they were hindus which they were, they bought into the caste system. The fact that they are still ashamed of the caste status of their ancestors tells us that the influence of hinduism remains with them even after conversion to sikhism. You dont see such shame among the descendants of european serfs and such desperate attempts to rewrite history. Shame is on those who created this system and who perpetuate it. Seems like many sikhs continue to be part of the problem even though the sikh gurus were part of the solution.

So did the Jatt hindus. Jatts were low caste hindus before they became Sikhs, muslims or Arya Samajists. The jatts who have remained hindus, such as the ones in Haryana are considered Sudras and treated as such by the upper castes. Indian courts have also recognized them as low caste sudras and eligible for reservations. Most Jatts converted to Sikhism to escape their low caste status in hinduism. Note that while all the 10 sikh gurus were khatris, most khatris have remained hindus. Why? Because unlike Jatts they had a high status in hinduism.

It doesn’t matter what the brahmins ‘assign’ you as if you don’t accept it. If I decide my next-door neighbour is lower caste than I am, he as a Korean-American will laugh it off and think I’m crazy…without ever for a moment accepting that he is lower..

You should be embarrassed for making such a silly argument. You can consider a korean whatever the hell you want it will not apply to him because he does not subscribe to your ideology. Jatts being hindus subscribed to the brahminical caste system by definition (before Sikhism, Arya Samaj etc). If brahmins considered them low caste sudras, thats what they were, as long as they were hindus. Sikhism does not assign caste. The caste-conscious Jatt sikhs need to face the fact that if they have any caste at all it is the sudra caste carrying over from the time when their ancestors were hindus. They can then feel superior to the Chamars, which is probably why this idiocy continues among so many of them despite the fact that Sikhism rejects casteism.

And, with respect to whether or not they respected Brahmins, the answer is no. Why? Because many Jatts have a strong appreciation for people who work, and the historic anecdotes I’ve been told say that many Brahmins relied on alms and the support of members of the community to survive. I’m not saying this derision is justified, again, just providing context.

Also, I have no evidence for this whatsoever, but what I was told anecdotally by relatives is that one of the reasons Jatts are so “low caste” is because they didn’t fully buy into the caste system to begin with when they moved into the Indus River Valley. In retaliation for not conforming to the prevalent social order, they were assigned a low caste rank. As a result, you have a community that was already very clan based and close that becomes even more tight knit, but this time with a strong identification as a Jatt, not as a Sudra. This also helps to explain some of the caste-vs-caste violence, because for many Jatts it’s not about your caste, it’s about your clan. I know this may be splitting hairs, and I don’t think it’s justified or ok, but I do think it’s important to realize that not everything breaks down into the standard conceptualization of the caste system.

Ennis, Camille: Thank you for the clarification regarding the Sikh gurus stance on caste. I was under the impression that they were against discrimination – one could dine together, e.g., and still see no problem with endogamy, or maintain that people were spiritually equal and still have no problem with endogamy – but you sugest that they challenged caste altogether, the entire order, which is quite remarkable.

Thanks risible, I think so too They did challenge the caste system altogether as an inherently unjust system. Like I said, this does not mean that Sikhs or Punjabi Sikhs do not have their own issues (whether it is classism, sexism, racism, etc.), but at least the principles and teachings of Sikhi itself reject all of these attitudes and systems of inequality.

OK, one last comment, regarding the above…Rajputs were assigned a high status because they filled a (perceived) needed role for one thing, but also because they completely capitulated to the system.

I will really try not to comment further on this stuff, at least on this thread.

It doesn’t matter what the brahmins ‘assign’ you as if you don’t accept it. If I decide my next-door neighbour is lower caste than I am, he as a Korean-American will laugh it off and think I’m crazy…without ever for a moment accepting that he is lower…even though I might persist for the rest of my life in my belief that indeed he is. It sounds like you have an axe to grind with Jatts. Since I have no particular interest in defending them beyond a certain point (they can certainly speak very well for themselves), nor in knocking them down, and certainly no interest in making them the next big topic here, I’m going to bow out now. But I think you’re trying to force a discordant reality to fit in to your viewpoint, regardless of whether it’s a good fit or not. Now, there are certainly other castes (baniyas are a good example) who accepted that Brahmins and Rajputs were higher than them, while in turn considering themselves higher than other castes like chamaars. THAT’S the caste system and mentality in full effect.

I couldn’t agree more…yet even gurdwaras are segregated by caste. In Sacramento, in the Rio Linda area there is a Dalit gurdwara, and I’m sure this is the case elsewhere too. Those Jatts who truly think they’re better than non-Jatt Punjabis and impose such caste-based separation are the equivalent of white supremacists.