Comments on: Desi Ivy Twerps Still Ivy Twerps http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: SA http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-2/#comment-115538 SA Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:29:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115538 <p>Thta kid went to my school. He was an idiot then too.</p> Thta kid went to my school. He was an idiot then too.

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By: angrez da putar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-2/#comment-115399 angrez da putar Sat, 27 Jan 2007 21:46:09 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115399 <ol> <li><p>Racism is not about intention. Racism is about effect. The effort by apologists like Ptoninan to reduce this to "intention" is a dodge. You can do anything wicked and then claim your intent was to parody wickedness. Same goes for the yobs who think they can prettify their fondness for ethnic insult by calling it "satire."</p></li> <li><p>Racism is not about offensiveness. Racism is about larger effects in the world, and thinking about effects means hinking about context and history. Offense may be one result, but it's only a small part of it. The world is full of offensive things and always will be. So reducing this to a game of I'm offended no <em>I'm</em> offended is stupid, and a dodge.</p></li> </ol> <p>The really damning part, as several of us have noticed, is not so much the article as the lame and dishonest defense of it mounted by the editors.</p> <p>What the apologists for racist utterance will not, cannot talk about is the history of vicious anti-Chinese racism in the United States, and the history of racist exclusion by institutions like Princeton. I don't know whether the charge that Princeton is currently discriminating against East Asians is valid. But it's not an unreasonable hypothesis, and the charge is that exclusion works <em>through</em> stereotypes of East Asians as humorless grinds, so that the admissions officer looks at the file and says yeah, top scores and grades, but not well-rounded enough. Terms like "well-rounded" and "character" were what were used for decades to exclude Jews from the Ivies. So when undergrads within Princeton respond to the challenge <em>precisely</em> by playing up the stereotype of a kind of person who should not be admitted despite their enormous hard work because you know, old boy, they're just a little too keen and not really like us, it's pretty clear what's going on.</p> <p>Folks from previously-excluded groups are <em>not</em> going to get into top colleges like Princeton because they're old money and their Dad was an alum and they went to the right prep school and have that preppy polish. They're going to get in through really hard academic work. And to have that, in particular, mocked tells you a lot about what's going on.</p>
  • Racism is not about intention. Racism is about effect. The effort by apologists like Ptoninan to reduce this to “intention” is a dodge. You can do anything wicked and then claim your intent was to parody wickedness. Same goes for the yobs who think they can prettify their fondness for ethnic insult by calling it “satire.”

  • Racism is not about offensiveness. Racism is about larger effects in the world, and thinking about effects means hinking about context and history. Offense may be one result, but it’s only a small part of it. The world is full of offensive things and always will be. So reducing this to a game of I’m offended no I’m offended is stupid, and a dodge.

  • The really damning part, as several of us have noticed, is not so much the article as the lame and dishonest defense of it mounted by the editors.

    What the apologists for racist utterance will not, cannot talk about is the history of vicious anti-Chinese racism in the United States, and the history of racist exclusion by institutions like Princeton. I don’t know whether the charge that Princeton is currently discriminating against East Asians is valid. But it’s not an unreasonable hypothesis, and the charge is that exclusion works through stereotypes of East Asians as humorless grinds, so that the admissions officer looks at the file and says yeah, top scores and grades, but not well-rounded enough. Terms like “well-rounded” and “character” were what were used for decades to exclude Jews from the Ivies. So when undergrads within Princeton respond to the challenge precisely by playing up the stereotype of a kind of person who should not be admitted despite their enormous hard work because you know, old boy, they’re just a little too keen and not really like us, it’s pretty clear what’s going on.

    Folks from previously-excluded groups are not going to get into top colleges like Princeton because they’re old money and their Dad was an alum and they went to the right prep school and have that preppy polish. They’re going to get in through really hard academic work. And to have that, in particular, mocked tells you a lot about what’s going on.

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    By: psychospliff http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-2/#comment-115394 psychospliff Sat, 27 Jan 2007 21:04:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115394 <p><b>For Ptonian</b> I can assure you that some of us have indeed taken the time to read much of what’s been written around this issue and we’re not prematurely assuming things. You seem to buy into the “I’m Asian so I can’t possibly racist” argument. The reason I say this is because you link a (rather tepid and unconvincing, in my opinion) article written by the Asian American Students Association as though their stamp of approval should officially resolve the problems anyone else might be having about the op-ed. While I’d be the first to agree that racism, by definition, is structural and far more complex than the dumbass across the street calling you some stupid names, it has just as much to do with history and context. In this case, the editors of a publicly available piece going out under Princeton’s name – regardless of the colour of their skin – need to consider its potential audience and whether such blatant writing could backfire, potentially perpetuating racism and ignorance in the minds of people who really don’t need any additional help from an elitist institution in supporting their stereotypes. If you have that power, then you certainly don’t have the luxury of being careless and flippant with your words. Hiding behind the petulant excuse of “b-b-but <em>sniff</em> my INTENT was good and now you’ve hurt my feelings” doesn’t cut it. Nor does the incredible arrogance of “rejecting” the charge of racism.</p> For Ptonian I can assure you that some of us have indeed taken the time to read much of what’s been written around this issue and we’re not prematurely assuming things. You seem to buy into the “I’m Asian so I can’t possibly racist” argument. The reason I say this is because you link a (rather tepid and unconvincing, in my opinion) article written by the Asian American Students Association as though their stamp of approval should officially resolve the problems anyone else might be having about the op-ed. While I’d be the first to agree that racism, by definition, is structural and far more complex than the dumbass across the street calling you some stupid names, it has just as much to do with history and context. In this case, the editors of a publicly available piece going out under Princeton’s name – regardless of the colour of their skin – need to consider its potential audience and whether such blatant writing could backfire, potentially perpetuating racism and ignorance in the minds of people who really don’t need any additional help from an elitist institution in supporting their stereotypes. If you have that power, then you certainly don’t have the luxury of being careless and flippant with your words. Hiding behind the petulant excuse of “b-b-but sniff my INTENT was good and now you’ve hurt my feelings” doesn’t cut it. Nor does the incredible arrogance of “rejecting” the charge of racism.

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    By: Ptonian http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-2/#comment-115338 Ptonian Sat, 27 Jan 2007 03:44:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115338 <p>All this talk about the South Asian-East Asian divide going on over here is so utterly uninformed, it's funny. I happen to go to Princeton and if the people reading this blog would take the time to also read the joint statement released by the newspaper and the Asian American Students Association (http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/01/22/news/17158.shtml) the next day, they'd realize the following things:</p> <ol> <li>Asians, when taken in an American context, usually refers to East Asians.</li> <li>The article itself was written by East Asian students. Not that that makes it less offensive, but it certainly helps put a stop to the ridiculous racism charges being flung around.</li> <li>The newspaper acknowledges that the piece was badly done and everyone on campus recognizes the fact that there was no racist or malicious intent driving the piece.</li> <li>The fact that the current and next editor in chief happen to be South Asian has absolutely nothing to do with the conception or publication of the piece. There are many other people on staff and it just so happens that the editor takes the fall for every else because of his post.</li> </ol> <p>Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where people read something on the internet, don't bother to get the full facts and proceed to make it out to be a much bigger deal than it actually is. Maybe the article wasn't funny, but presuming that you know the intentions of the people writing it and calling them racist is also pretty offensive, not to mention unintelligent.</p> All this talk about the South Asian-East Asian divide going on over here is so utterly uninformed, it’s funny. I happen to go to Princeton and if the people reading this blog would take the time to also read the joint statement released by the newspaper and the Asian American Students Association (http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2007/01/22/news/17158.shtml) the next day, they’d realize the following things:

    1. Asians, when taken in an American context, usually refers to East Asians.
    2. The article itself was written by East Asian students. Not that that makes it less offensive, but it certainly helps put a stop to the ridiculous racism charges being flung around.
    3. The newspaper acknowledges that the piece was badly done and everyone on campus recognizes the fact that there was no racist or malicious intent driving the piece.
    4. The fact that the current and next editor in chief happen to be South Asian has absolutely nothing to do with the conception or publication of the piece. There are many other people on staff and it just so happens that the editor takes the fall for every else because of his post.

    Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where people read something on the internet, don’t bother to get the full facts and proceed to make it out to be a much bigger deal than it actually is. Maybe the article wasn’t funny, but presuming that you know the intentions of the people writing it and calling them racist is also pretty offensive, not to mention unintelligent.

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    By: Puspha Williams http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-2/#comment-115312 Puspha Williams Fri, 26 Jan 2007 23:28:22 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115312 <p>Princetonians are so hot, isn't it?</p> Princetonians are so hot, isn’t it?

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    By: Sulaksheeeeeni http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-1/#comment-115310 Sulaksheeeeeni Fri, 26 Jan 2007 23:26:05 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115310 <p>ivys are overrated!</p> ivys are overrated!

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    By: Saras Mami http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-1/#comment-115309 Saras Mami Fri, 26 Jan 2007 23:24:24 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115309 <p>My sister used to work at a similar level ivy institution and was the managing editor of her paper - desi writers rule!</p> My sister used to work at a similar level ivy institution and was the managing editor of her paper – desi writers rule!

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    By: mam http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-1/#comment-115272 mam Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:28:35 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115272 <blockquote>Why must a comic or an act that is truly and obviously designed to be funny (like this one) have to prove liberal credentials by first making fun of his/her own kind? Why must an Indian-American not make fun of East-Asians? They're trying to justify their behaviour by saying they're all Asians - not an intent to hide behind a convinient label, but IMHO that's just a way of saying we're all outsiders. </blockquote> <p>no one's saying an indian person can't make fun of an east asian person. i may not find him funny all the time, but russel peters manages to do just that, without a hint of racism and with some charm to boot. the difference is that the princetonians fall back on lame, negative stereotypes and pin a mocking accent onto someone who is asian american and probably doesn't have an accent at all. for sethi to claim that he's part of the asian club so it's okay for him to do it, is one of the most offensive parts of this. one would think he would understand, or perhaps he's never had an apu accent thrown at him, or someone ask him to pump his gas, or wonder why he smelled.</p> Why must a comic or an act that is truly and obviously designed to be funny (like this one) have to prove liberal credentials by first making fun of his/her own kind? Why must an Indian-American not make fun of East-Asians? They’re trying to justify their behaviour by saying they’re all Asians – not an intent to hide behind a convinient label, but IMHO that’s just a way of saying we’re all outsiders.

    no one’s saying an indian person can’t make fun of an east asian person. i may not find him funny all the time, but russel peters manages to do just that, without a hint of racism and with some charm to boot. the difference is that the princetonians fall back on lame, negative stereotypes and pin a mocking accent onto someone who is asian american and probably doesn’t have an accent at all. for sethi to claim that he’s part of the asian club so it’s okay for him to do it, is one of the most offensive parts of this. one would think he would understand, or perhaps he’s never had an apu accent thrown at him, or someone ask him to pump his gas, or wonder why he smelled.

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    By: Mizuho http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-1/#comment-115265 Mizuho Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:15:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115265 <blockquote>It's not being thin-skinned and insecure. This article wasn't funny. I don't think we should congratulate stupidity and ineptitude.</blockquote> <p>No, the article wasn't funny at all, and I seriously doubt it was meant in a satirical fashion.</p> <p>However, I still don't think we should attack the Ivy League or any particular institution over it. If UCLA published a similar article, we wouldn't blame "Pac 10 twerps" or "UC twerps." We're fooling ourselves if we blame this ongoing problem on social elitism or privilege. The real problem isn't localized...it's a national phenomenon that deserves attention in that context.</p> It’s not being thin-skinned and insecure. This article wasn’t funny. I don’t think we should congratulate stupidity and ineptitude.

    No, the article wasn’t funny at all, and I seriously doubt it was meant in a satirical fashion.

    However, I still don’t think we should attack the Ivy League or any particular institution over it. If UCLA published a similar article, we wouldn’t blame “Pac 10 twerps” or “UC twerps.” We’re fooling ourselves if we blame this ongoing problem on social elitism or privilege. The real problem isn’t localized…it’s a national phenomenon that deserves attention in that context.

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    By: RC http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/25/desi_ivy_twerps/comment-page-1/#comment-115260 RC Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:55:22 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4141#comment-115260 <blockquote>To think that the audiences of Borat are solely laughing at the people who respond to him, and not to the character itself, is to delude oneself. </blockquote> <p>No the audience laugh at the misogany and anti-semite and anti-every-decent-western-thing behavior by the charactor. Which proves my point, that audiences love it because it reinforces their superiority.</p> To think that the audiences of Borat are solely laughing at the people who respond to him, and not to the character itself, is to delude oneself.

    No the audience laugh at the misogany and anti-semite and anti-every-decent-western-thing behavior by the charactor. Which proves my point, that audiences love it because it reinforces their superiority.

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