Comments on: Our Foremost Political Philosopher http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: shimi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-116730 shimi Wed, 07 Feb 2007 01:22:11 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-116730 <p>Just wanted to let people know that the NYT finally did it's review of Dinesh's book and it's pretty funny. I believe they called him a male Ann Coulter, amongst other things...</p> Just wanted to let people know that the NYT finally did it’s review of Dinesh’s book and it’s pretty funny. I believe they called him a male Ann Coulter, amongst other things…

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By: HMF http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115917 HMF Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:29:07 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115917 <p>Fine by me, just as long as you use a diverse set of cigarettes instead of sticking to one brand.</p> Fine by me, just as long as you use a diverse set of cigarettes instead of sticking to one brand.

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115868 Manju Wed, 31 Jan 2007 07:40:17 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115868 <p>HMF:</p> <p>I'm tired. And I need a cigarette. I'd say I feel like we just had rough sex...but I don't want to cause more terrorism.</p> HMF:

I’m tired. And I need a cigarette. I’d say I feel like we just had rough sex…but I don’t want to cause more terrorism.

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By: HMF http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115808 HMF Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:07:00 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115808 <blockquote>the petitioner lost the case. powell's prevailing opinion does not include the context of redressing cumulative racial injustices.</blockquote> <p>I saw this coming a mile away. The petitioner losing the case is irrelevent. The result doesn't negate the statement of purpose. Why Powell would agree with race being used to increase diversity, but not at the very least have one reason be to redress racial injustices - when it's clearly stated in the petitioner's statement, is beyond me.</p> <p>Indeed, I'd say <i>any</i> institution where white dominance exists, in particular ones that are intrinsic to human existence, i.e. employment, shelter (housing), and to some extent schooling, posess said white dominance due to "cumulative racial injustices" Asking it to be stated over and over is like asking a physicist to state fundamentals of number theory in each scientific theory he proposes.</p> <blockquote>this partially explains how recent immigrants, for example, can get preferential treatment in college admissions, when nothing "special" was done against them. a far cry from:</blockquote> <p>This is a little tricky. I agree with you partially, but as I said before, it just means better methods of classification are required. But anything King says won't support <b>or</b> contravene it, because the situation wasn't in the national discussion at the time.</p> <p>But, I will also say that racial classification and discrimination doesn't necessarily have to account for "length of stay" so to speak. An immigrant from the Gabon is immediately classifed as "black" the second he arrives, and I'd argue, inherits most of the socially ingrained stereotypes a black slave descendent would endure, <i>within</i> their social class. Either way, King's words are orthogonal to this entire line of discussion.</p> the petitioner lost the case. powell’s prevailing opinion does not include the context of redressing cumulative racial injustices.

I saw this coming a mile away. The petitioner losing the case is irrelevent. The result doesn’t negate the statement of purpose. Why Powell would agree with race being used to increase diversity, but not at the very least have one reason be to redress racial injustices – when it’s clearly stated in the petitioner’s statement, is beyond me.

Indeed, I’d say any institution where white dominance exists, in particular ones that are intrinsic to human existence, i.e. employment, shelter (housing), and to some extent schooling, posess said white dominance due to “cumulative racial injustices” Asking it to be stated over and over is like asking a physicist to state fundamentals of number theory in each scientific theory he proposes.

this partially explains how recent immigrants, for example, can get preferential treatment in college admissions, when nothing “special” was done against them. a far cry from:

This is a little tricky. I agree with you partially, but as I said before, it just means better methods of classification are required. But anything King says won’t support or contravene it, because the situation wasn’t in the national discussion at the time.

But, I will also say that racial classification and discrimination doesn’t necessarily have to account for “length of stay” so to speak. An immigrant from the Gabon is immediately classifed as “black” the second he arrives, and I’d argue, inherits most of the socially ingrained stereotypes a black slave descendent would endure, within their social class. Either way, King’s words are orthogonal to this entire line of discussion.

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By: Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115805 Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:21:01 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115805 <p>I havnt really been following the debate between Manju and HMF but I must say that the Court itself has changed its rationale for Affirmative Action. In the 70s it was more about redressing past grievances which arose out of institutionalized discrimination against blacks to the 2000 post arguments which tend to rely upon the benefits of diversity.</p> I havnt really been following the debate between Manju and HMF but I must say that the Court itself has changed its rationale for Affirmative Action. In the 70s it was more about redressing past grievances which arose out of institutionalized discrimination against blacks to the 2000 post arguments which tend to rely upon the benefits of diversity.

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115803 Manju Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:44:38 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115803 <blockquote>Any statements Powell (or any other judge) made regarding diversity must be understood in the context put forth by the petitioner.</blockquote> <p>the petitioner lost the case. powell's prevailing opinion does not include the context of redressing cumulative racial injustices.</p> <p>this partially explains how recent immigrants, for example, can get preferential treatment in college admissions, when nothing "special" was done against them. a far cry from:</p> <blockquote>A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, in order to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis</blockquote> <p>.</p> Any statements Powell (or any other judge) made regarding diversity must be understood in the context put forth by the petitioner.

the petitioner lost the case. powell’s prevailing opinion does not include the context of redressing cumulative racial injustices.

this partially explains how recent immigrants, for example, can get preferential treatment in college admissions, when nothing “special” was done against them. a far cry from:

A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for him, in order to equip him to compete on a just and equal basis

.

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By: No von Mises http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115794 No von Mises Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:09:57 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115794 <p>Yo, because of this spirited point/counterpoint exchange between Manju and HMF, Dinesh is going to appear on <a href="http://www.booktv.org/General/index.asp?segID=7831&schedID=474&category=In+Depth">CSPAN2 this Sunday</a> (Feb. 4, 12pm EST) for a 3-hour in-depth conversation. It will settle everything. Ailments will be cured, lingering questions, such as "Do coconuts migrate?", will be answered, forever even.</p> Yo, because of this spirited point/counterpoint exchange between Manju and HMF, Dinesh is going to appear on CSPAN2 this Sunday (Feb. 4, 12pm EST) for a 3-hour in-depth conversation. It will settle everything. Ailments will be cured, lingering questions, such as “Do coconuts migrate?”, will be answered, forever even.

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By: HMF http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115792 HMF Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:50:58 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115792 <blockquote>But it does not follow that all lack of diversity is a product of exclusionary practices.</blockquote> <p>True. A case is the NBA. Whiteboys just can't handle the rock.</p> <blockquote>Well, that would be the single most important opinion on AA, justice powell in the Bakke case. powell argued that race could be used as a factor as long as it is done for the purpose of a diverse student body, w/o having to prove past exclusionary practices</blockquote> <p>Taken from this <a href = "http://www.acluprocon.org/SupCtCases/314UCRegents.html">link</a>:</p> <p>"The central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to protect discreet and insular minorities, and it would be cruel of the Court to turn this Amendment into a weapon against state government efforts to <b>redress cumulative racial injustices.</b> The purpose of University of California's admission system is to promote racial diversity <b>in a school marked by white dominance</b> in both the faculty and the administration."</p> <p>Any statements Powell (or any other judge) made regarding diversity must be understood in the context put forth by the petitioner.</p> But it does not follow that all lack of diversity is a product of exclusionary practices.

True. A case is the NBA. Whiteboys just can’t handle the rock.

Well, that would be the single most important opinion on AA, justice powell in the Bakke case. powell argued that race could be used as a factor as long as it is done for the purpose of a diverse student body, w/o having to prove past exclusionary practices

Taken from this link:

“The central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to protect discreet and insular minorities, and it would be cruel of the Court to turn this Amendment into a weapon against state government efforts to redress cumulative racial injustices. The purpose of University of California’s admission system is to promote racial diversity in a school marked by white dominance in both the faculty and the administration.”

Any statements Powell (or any other judge) made regarding diversity must be understood in the context put forth by the petitioner.

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By: Manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115778 Manju Tue, 30 Jan 2007 06:27:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115778 <blockquote>And I'm still waiting for a source (other than your head) that supports "diversity" without the historical context of exclusionary practices. </blockquote> <p>Well, that would be the single most important opinion on AA, justice powell in the Bakke case. powell argued that race could be used as a factor as long as it is done for the purpose of a diverse student body, w/o having to prove past exclusionary practices (not unlike schools who give preference to students form the midwest or southern states)</p> <p>i understand your argument that race-conscious policies for the sake of diversity are a natural extension of race-conscious policies for the sake of righting past exclusionary practices. After all, all exclusionary practices would result in a lack of diversity. But it does not follow that all lack of diversity is a product of exclusionary practices. This is a critical distinction.</p> <p>Furthermore, diversity focuses on results, or equality of results. MLK, in every known quote about race conscious policies, focused not on results, but on equal opportunities. Another critical distinction.</p> <p>so for these 2 reasons, the reliance on diversity has shifted the landscape dramatically, to a point where AA cannot be squared w/ the Dream.</p> And I’m still waiting for a source (other than your head) that supports “diversity” without the historical context of exclusionary practices.

Well, that would be the single most important opinion on AA, justice powell in the Bakke case. powell argued that race could be used as a factor as long as it is done for the purpose of a diverse student body, w/o having to prove past exclusionary practices (not unlike schools who give preference to students form the midwest or southern states)

i understand your argument that race-conscious policies for the sake of diversity are a natural extension of race-conscious policies for the sake of righting past exclusionary practices. After all, all exclusionary practices would result in a lack of diversity. But it does not follow that all lack of diversity is a product of exclusionary practices. This is a critical distinction.

Furthermore, diversity focuses on results, or equality of results. MLK, in every known quote about race conscious policies, focused not on results, but on equal opportunities. Another critical distinction.

so for these 2 reasons, the reliance on diversity has shifted the landscape dramatically, to a point where AA cannot be squared w/ the Dream.

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By: HMF http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2007/01/22/the_worst_nonfi/comment-page-3/#comment-115762 HMF Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:36:05 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=4132#comment-115762 <p>I think Chris Rock's description of affirmative action is the best:</p> <p>"I don't think I deserve a job over a more qualified white man. But if it's a tie, fuck 'em - You had a 400 year headstart"</p> I think Chris Rock’s description of affirmative action is the best:

“I don’t think I deserve a job over a more qualified white man. But if it’s a tie, fuck ‘em – You had a 400 year headstart”

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