Sadhu: My wish: good karma for the whole world Bedouin: My wish: that beliefs don’t become a reason for war

More Moorish Spain on SM: one, two, three

remove “only.” sloppy re-edit.

the key is felt. i will end it with you in this way: the attitudes that enlightened westerners began to exhibit toward muslim spain starting the 18th century and continuing into our own time says more about the nature of european civilization before the modern era, than it does about muslim spain! the only reason that i protest is that muslims themselves have taken up the banner and an ahistorical narrative promoted by european secularists to attack christendom is now taken as historical fact.

Muslim Spain was probably one of the most tolerant pluralistic civilizations of its time – so to use the term “fabled tolerance” is disingenous.

no. it wasn’t. only if you exclude the whole eastern half of eurasia, where religious disagreement did not make you a non-citizen. something to keep in mind when reading a blog where many individuals are of non-abrahamic provenance is that there is civilization outside of western eurasia

So for example the dhimmi in Muslim Spain, were in essence protected peoples, because the moral norm at the time was to slaughter, convert, or enslave, after a conquest, anyone who was not of your religion or your tribe.

this was the norm only among extremely civilized peoples. i am skeptical than even the pagan arabs engaged in this, since many were town dwellers and what not. the muslim conceptions of the jahilya are i suspect in large part propoganda to justify their dispensation (the arabs had civilized polities long before islam). conquered peoples were normally taxable base. it is true they could be slaughtered or enslaved, but on the scale of empires genocide was normally costly and so not engaged in (rather, local elites were co-opted, and this did happen in what was visigothic spain). the christians did not “slaughter, convert, or enslave, after a conquest” after all, at the time of the reconquista an enormous population of muslims lived under christian monarchs. after 1492 these became the moriscos. they were not expelled until 1600, and this in large part motivated by moriscos who converted to christianity and wished to sever all associations with crypto-muslims who cast their own citizenship under a pall.

p.s. if you want a state which exhibited exemplary toleration of religion during the period of the reconquista, i suggest you look to the duchy of lithuania between 1200-1400, where eastern orthodox and catholic christians were ruled by a pagan ruling caste, and muslim and jewish bureaucrats worked in the capital.

Muslim Spain was probably one of the most tolerant pluralistic civilizations of its time – so to use the term “fabled tolerance” is disingenous. You simply cannot judge a civilization by comparing it to one from another millenium (as in comparing Muslim Spain to America today) – because society evolves and moral norms also evolve.

So for example the dhimmi in Muslim Spain, were in essence protected peoples, because the moral norm at the time was to slaughter, convert, or enslave, after a conquest, anyone who was not of your religion or your tribe. The dhimmi, on the other hand, were entitled to their own religious laws and allowed to practice their own religious faith in Muslim Spain. To argue that they were forced to pay a tax is also disingenuous, because Muslims in these empire paid the zakat tax, a tax usually equal to the tax the dhimmi paid. Muslims and non-Muslims were all residents of the empire, so they were all required to pay taxes.

However, in that age, your religion was your citizenship. So a Muslim in a Muslim empire enjoyed more rights and more privileges, because he was a citizen. A non-Muslim, enjoyed less rights, but nevertheless enjoyed basic freedoms as compared to the other great empires of the time.

Perhaps in a thousand years, someone will accuse the American civilization of being intolerant and discriminatory because it differentiated between citizens and non-citizens. Such a criticism would be just as disingenuous as accusing Muslim Spain of intolerance.

The irony, of course is my Spanish heritage. My grandfathers first name has been passed from father to son for a couple hundred years.

It may be a low bar, but these were the choices: Castillian Christians or Moorish Muslims. Given that set of options, I pick the Moors.

I meant because I showed up in Granada, where they were celebrating the reconquista and I had to decide how I felt about it.

Noel