I don’t think I went there (nor did Neal). That’s your ghost.

Bush and co have been pretty good at PR and pretty successful at pushing their policy using hawkish tactics, but not in implementing those policies. They just don’t like being questioned.

1. Salentan piece reviews democrat Zell Miller’s speech. Pretty harsh speech and I generally don’t agree with it but it falls short of questioning the patriotism of the dems, though it is arguably implyed. Miller (D: GA) accuses the Dems of playing politics with the war, which of course, many Dems accuse the Reps of the same. Harsh politics yes, but not on the level of farenheit 911 or Swift Boat.

2.This is a DNC site, I’m not interested in what Dems think are examples of their patriotism being questioned, but in the actual words.

3.Greenway’s piece has no examples of patriotism being questioned, the worst here is Jean Schmidt stupid “coward’s cut an run” which she apologized for.

1. Nothing objectionable in Rummy’s comments. Accusing Dems of being neville chamberlain’s is not questioning their patriotism, just judgement.

2. Apparently Lynne Cheney thinks it’s wrong to run tapes of terrorist shooting american soldiers. This is arguable, but I think she crosses the line when asks wolf if he wants america to win.

So some pretty good examples, but nothing that justifies talk of a new McCarthyism. After all, falsely accusing someone of being a McCarthyist is itself McCarthyism.

Imperial President

Bush Renounces Smears, But Will Cheney, Rove and Mehlman Follow?

Bush’s patriotism smear

Rumsfeld Lashes Out at Bush’s Critics

CNN’s Wolf Blitzer Calls Out Lynne Cheney For ‘Sniping At My Patriotism’

India has been ‘tagged’ pathologically ‘dove’-ish country. And as regards Kashmir,I don’t see any country that would: 1.Pull back troops from the land fought hard & right..and go to UN to resolve the issue. 2.Do nothing about the largest refugees within ones own country ( Kashimiri Pandits). 3.Earn independence – the Dove ka Baap way – a.k.a non violence. ……. the list goes on.

Its a foregone conclusion in India, amongst the populace..that India tries to please everybody (both domestically & Internationally)…doesn’t have spine…and is one useless DOVEish country.

To take Iraq, North Korea,Iran, Cuba and Kashmir in the same breath does not sound right. Replace Kashmir with the beacon of fredom..the US of A. It might sound better.

Neal:

Do you have any links to show hawks accusing doves of “hating our country?” I know Ann Coulter did this, maybe Sean Hannidy, but anyone else?…the more prominent the better.

In fact, as far as I can tell, doves like to question the patriotism of hawks. Here’s some examples via rich lowry:

1. Teresa Heinz Kerry: “creeping, un-Pennsylvanian and sometimes un-American traits”

2. Wes Clark: “I don’t think it’s patriotic to put on a flight suit and prance around on the deck of an aircraft carrier looking for a photo op,” he railed. “We have a president of the United States who did not do his duty to take care of America. If you’re patriotic, you do your duty.”

“Kind of crazy. Not patriotic. Not smart. I don’t think it was a patriotic war. I think it was a mistake, a strategic mistake, and I think that the president of the United States wasn’t patriotic in going after Saddam Hussein.”

“He simply misled America and cost us casualties and killed and injured America’s reputation around the world without valid reason for doing so. It’s not patriotic; it’s wrong.”

1. Sen. Bob Graham has said that Bush’s Iraq policy was “anti-patriotic at the core.”

4.Howard Dean said that Attorney General John Ashcroft “is not a patriot.”

1. John Kerry himself has said that it was “unpatriotic” for Bush’s “friends” in the corporate world to outsource jobs overseas. For good measure, Kerry has called those corporate leaders “Benedict Arnold CEOs.”

I look forward to your counter-examples.

I dearly hope that this kind of research will encourage hawks to pause a minute before accusing those of us who are actually willing to step back and ask for evidence or proper logistical planning before engaging in military action of “hating our country”, etc…

But I doubt it.

I agree.

I happened to pick up a hard copy of the previous issue of FP (Nov/Dec). In the FP memo-” How to save the Neocon’s” by J. Muravchik he states that Bush has to bomb Iran’s nuclear facilities before leaving office. The article goes on to say we need a “global circle of intellectuals and public figures who share a devotion to democracy”. Ahmadinejad scares me. However I don’t get why we [America &Co.] still maintain that democracy = I love USA? If one man, one vote always equal love for America why do we still have the electoral college? A cynical part of me thinks that’s just the cover story (fight for democracy)- the real story is the original story–it’s all about the limited resources and making sure we have continued access to them.

Extrapolating from numerous arguments I have had with friends and enemies I would argue that if politics at higher levels were played in a similar way to more local politics (home, office, school etc..) then stating arguments in a fact based and technical manner has a far greater potential than rhetoric based on lines of country, ideology. this is to be expected since attempting to state a case in terms of “democracy is superior therefore…” or “our system is superior therefore…” has not the slightest effect on an representative of the other side whatever that may be provided they are fully convinced of the validity of their position. the hawk view in these cases then prevails as the final arbiter at closing any such argument. I would also argue that the concept of “loss of face” is vastly different depending on the culture and that more than anything leads to unilateral policies. It seems even politicians are not immune to “loss of face” and a hawkish approach is seen as a silver bullet for it. Let it not be said that I am a naive idealist – only that I am with Plato in arguing that those who rule should be the philosophers:-) hmmm…makes me wonder what fact based position would have convinced Saddam to give up his misguided opposition to the worlds number one hegemony? Perhaps consulting Bejan Dharuwalla and being given an accurate forecast of his impending doom?