“Just when I thought that I was out…..they pull me back in !!!”.

I actually wasn’t going to comment on this thread anymore, but I felt that your post above addressed me deserved a reply. Thank you very much for such a detailed and thoughtful message; I’m sure this issue is a sensitive topic for you (as it obviously is for some others here) and possibly triggers memories of some bad experiences, so I do appreciate you taking the time out to put your thoughts down like that.

I’m pretty sure there are some different internal dynamics at work here, with regards to the desi community in the UK compared to our counterparts over in America. I’ve never seen such protracted analyses, preoccupation, and instant-picking up-on-skin-colour of models/actresses/etc amongst desis (including desi women) in my entire life here in Britain. Not anywhere near to this extent. You can probably tell from the reaction to this thread amongst the handful of my fellow Brit commenters that it’s quite bemusing to us, and our response is a fairly accurate reflection of how the average British desi views matters; commenters on certain UK-based South Asian blogs (who frequently lurk on SM) have also noticed what we regard as the unusual level of hypersensitivity and (some would say) obsession with the issue amongst our American cousins, or at least those who participate on SM.

Maybe all this is also a factor of specifically American dynamics in the mainstream society/culture regarding notions of beauty — which you mentioned in your own post. Again, possibly some differences compared to the UK in that matter. shrug

It’s interesting how our own social environments and points of reference affect our perspectives; personally I’d regard most of the models on that calendar as being in the middle of the range rather than “particularly fair-skinned” (in my view, people like Laila Rouass or Preity Zinta would fall into the latter category), but again that’s a factor of what huge numbers of British desis look like along with the kind of people I’ve generally met. But to be honest with you, I didn’t even notice their skin-colour when I first looked at the calender; I just ogled it briefly in a typical frat-bro kinda way, decided that I liked the Kingfisher calendar more, and that was it. It was only when subsequent commenters started voicing their objections that the subject even occurred to me, and even then I was initially unsure about whether they were referring to fairness/darkness or the models’ facial features (or both). That should give you an indication of how alien all this is to me and to many of my compatriots on this side of the Atlantic

Beyond that, I guess I have to agree with Manju’s remarks again (#165). Unfortunately, in many aspects life isn’t intrinsically fair (no pun intended). If a positive remark is made about person A (or they are depicted in a positive light), then “by default” the implication can be viewed as negative towards persons B & C who may not have the same quality or trait as person A. Regardless of what we’re talking about; a woman saying she likes tall guys, or those with deep voices, or only those earning 6-figure salaries, can be regarded as being offensive towards guys who are short, have high-pitched voices, or don’t have such a high level of earning power (random examples). However, the difference is the following: Whether the statement is deliberately geared to offend by default the people lacking in a certain trait. If this is not the case, then it raises the question of why the other party is interpreting that any positive stance towards a different party automatically implies an underlying negative “insult” towards them, rather than a neutral one.

One definitely has to be sensitive towards the feelings of others, but it can sometimes be taken too far by the other party if they apparently “make everything about them” even if the target of focus is someone else entirely. At least if it happens all the time, and seemingly every damn time. It also raises questions regarding whether some individuals are so insecure that nobody else can ever be viewed positively without them basically shouting “But what about meeeee ???” and feeling offended and marginalised. Again, there’s a difference between a) actively insulting someone, b) insulting someone indirectly, and c) allegedly insulting someone “by default”. We all have our own crap to deal with (yep, even me !), but feeling offended whenever someone more in line with stereotypical notions of certain positive qualities (whether looks or anything else) can be (mis)interpreted as exhibiting jealousy and self-centredness. In the most extreme circumstances I would even call it “being spoilt”. Like I said, we all have our respective hurdles to overcome (even if it’s not skin-colour, it’s frequently other areas), and although initial/occasional “venting” is a perfectly understandable response, feeling “slighted” whenever another party is depicted positively and continuously complaining about it (when you have options to remove yourself from the offending environment, or refuse to regard it as being an issue at all and thereby maximising your various positive traits so much that the apparent “hindrance” becomes a total irrelevance) risks spiralling into self-indulgence and an unnecessary victim mentality. We can’t have affirmative action for absolutely everything in life.

As I said before, I agree 100% that the calendar is not an accurate reflection of (American) South Asian women as a whole, because they’re disproportionately Gujarati or Punjabi. This in itself may be a result of several factors; maybe more women from those backgrounds wanted to participate — only the makers of the calendar can confirm or deny this, along with explicitly stating what their selection criteria were. I have no idea. However, it is a reflection – to some extent – of traditional notions of physical beauty within desi culture. If it wasn’t, then nobody would buy it. They’re responding to the perceived preferences of the market they’re targetting. I suppose, at a stretch, one could accuse them of pandering to, and reinforcing, what may be unfair attitudes within desi society, but that depends on how far you want to take this stance. Nevertheless, as a couple of other commenters remarked earlier, these things can become a self-fulfilling prophecy and models which are deliberately depicted as examples of beauty can themselves influence how similar-looking women are viewed in the “real world”, so you could have darker models/those of a non-northie background, with the deliberately “re-engineering” desi societal stances in this matter. IF that’s one’s aim, in which case one should be honest about it.

Ironically, the Kingfisher calendar does have a wider range of models both in terms of background and appearance, and there are numerous dark supermodels back in India who would be regarded as very dark indeed from traditional northie perspectives. So I guess that’s the “Devil’s Advocate response” to my earlier remark about how you can’t always have affirmative action in everything in life.

I think if folks embraced diversity instead of turning it into a “keeping up with the Jones’s” situation, perhaps communities would feel more united by their commonalities instead of divided by their differences.

Interesting that you say that too. The frequent inter-regional fighting on SM is a curious phenomenon in my view too (albeit one depressingly familiar, considering the more negative aspects of South Asian culture); maybe my own view is influenced by my own social circles or a certain British desi blog I also regularly comment on, but I’m surprised that people over in the US (especially the younger crowd) still behave like this, especially the undermining behaviour that’s sometimes targetted towards Sikhs (or Punjabis in general). It’s a terribly destructive attitude to have in a country where you’re outnumbered by 300 million people, where the mainstream environment isn’t necessarily as positive towards desis as it could be, and where you are nowhere near as established and concentrated as we are these days in Britain. South Asians in America should be leaning on each other as a source of strength and supporting the various positive aspects which other regional desi cultures may have (which in the UK is obviously very Punjabi-dominated), not constantly attacking each other and constantly being offended whenever there’s a focus on desis from different regional backgrounds or different physical appearances. You can’t just let India continue to be the main point of focus and reference for cultural identification, societal attitudes and so on. If the people concerned are 2nd-Gens, they should learn to identify and reject the bigotry & prejudice that they may have inherited from their parents, and if they’re “recent arrivals”, they should really leave all that crap behind the moment they step off the plane in the US, because so much of that nonsense is irrelvant to life in the West as a whole. “United we stand, divided we fall” and all that. Otherwise you’ll have to deal with “Macaca” jokes and Apu-type stereotypes for the next 50 years.

And yes, I do agree that my previous paragraph also applies to on-going notions of physical beauty amongst desis — but constantly complaining about it, regardless of the context or the motivation of the other party, does not resolve matters and certainly doesn’t make the person any more attractive. There are definitely more constructive ways to deal with it. “Doing your own thing” and leading by example are among them. Some of the most attractive — in the “all-round” sense, not just physically — darker desi women I’ve ever met (or am aware of in the “public eye” — Indian models/actresses/etc) have been that way because they’re so damn charismatic and have such wonderful personalities and attitudes to life that their skin-colour becomes completely irrelevant – especially since they don’t draw attention to it by constantly complaining about it or yelling “she’s practically a white woman !” whenever one of the fair-skinned types dares to stick her head above the parapet. They’ve really ended up being the kind of women who really can have practically any guy they wanted.

Anyway, I think this 12,000-word thesis is already far too long, so I’d better wrap it up

Here’s a personal example: I am by far the darkest among my cousins – boys and girls included. From the time I was born my mother was constantly told, “What beautiful eyelashes; shame this girl takes after her father [who's "buckwheat colored" to use my aunt's description].” I grew up consistently hearing, “Oh, she is so dark she’ll never get a husband,” and my mother started complaining when my love for soccer extended into high school saying, “But Camille, when you play these games in the afternoon your skin gets so dark!” I was bought any number of lightening creams, etc., which I did not use. I had decided that I would never get married, and definitely not to a fellow desi, and that I would enjoy the sun and tan and be as active as I wanted… all by the age of 12. I don’t necessarily feel the same anymore, but that is what darker-skinned girls grow up with. I am comfortable and more than happy with my skin color, but not because anyone made me feel that way. And, because of all these nasty comments growing up, I am much more aware of color than I would have been if people had just let me grow up as a normal, athletic, happy kid.

This experience is of course compounded both within and without if you live in the U.S. because then you have to deal with a whole other set of racial beauty standards on top of your own community’s “colorist” beauty standards. I don’t think I ever felt worse about my physical appearance than I did when I went to a nearly all-white high school [in the Bay Area, which has no dearth of desis]. At the end of the day, I feel people should be able to feel beautiful no matter what their background, skin color, etc., and they should be able to feel that their diversity is represented around them… Especially if a product specifically claims to be representative.

And finally, while I identify as Punjabi and am definitely used to Punjabi food, dance (bhangra), etc., being confused as representative of all “Indian” things in the East Bay, I do understand why it could be frustrating for any community who is not Gujju/Punjabi to feel that they’re completely glossed over. This frustration doesn’t make being Punjabi less-desi, but instead points to a similar tension in representation and familiarity. I think if folks embraced diversity instead of turning it into a “keeping up with the Jones’s” situation, perhaps communities would feel more united by their commonalities instead of divided by their differences.

Great representative conversation. I’ve usually heard much the same, although, I will say that most North Indians I come across will usually relegate all of South India to Madras. (Now, Bangalore can perhaps be added to the mix)

Dats cos itz 2 cold 2 b warin bikiniz n da UK.

There are others like…..

I also meant to include television news anchors like Priya Kaur-Jones and Shiulie Ghosh, and there are numerous other examples too — other musicians (apart from those who’ve already been listed), various models, other desis in journalism or in the media etc etc.

Of the examples mentioned….., are Parminder Nagra…..really “the darkest of the desi color spectrum”? They are both close what I consider the middle of the spectrum.

It’s interesting how one’s own local environment, background, and social circles affect one’s perceptions Parminder is very much at the darkest end of the spectrum for British South Asians, and she’s definitely quite a lot darker than the average British Punjabi. This doesn’t mean that the “average” British desi is exactly like Rishi Kapoor or Preity Zinta, but the majority aren’t like Parminder or Naveen Andrews either (although plenty of people like that are around too). It’s possibly something you’d only realise if you actually visited the country and spent a significant amount of time amongst a large enough number of desis here (from different backgrounds and in different locations).

Anyway, I think everyone on the various sides of the argument has now said whatever was on their minds, so I now think it’s time to wrap this up — especially as I’m not a big fan of this topic; desis in the UK aren’t even remotely as preoccupied with this whole issue (or as hypersensitive about it) as much as those of you in America seem to be !

Peace and goodwill to all.

I believe that I was the first person to address the fact that no South Indian women are in the calendar and also the person to use the term “ambiguously brown.” I’ve stayed away from commenting further because I felt that people were making a lot of assumptions about where those comments might have been coming from.

It is just a matter of fact that the calendar is NOT in fact a fair representation of south asian women — this information is clearly stated in the “models’” profiles. In that regard, my comment had nothing to do with skin color; I wouldn’t have commented if they had fair women from South India, I know plenty myself and I suppose even I could fall on the lighter side of the spectrum, particular my legs on a cold winter’s day. Why the lack of Southies irritates me on a personal level: it is the RULE and not the exception that when I meet an Indian whose origins lie outside of the 4 southern states, the following conversation occurs:

Stranger: “Are you from India?” Me: “Yep.” Stranger: “Where are you from?” Me: “Well my parents are from Madras.” Stranger: “Huh? What? Where?” Me: “Um, Madras. South India. Chennai?” Stranger: “HUH?” Me: “Tamil Nadu? All the way in the south??” Stranger: “Heh. So, you speak Hindi?” Me: “Um, no, we speak Tamil. That’s why it’s called Tamil Nadu.” Stranger: “So … you don’t speak Hindi?” Me: “I DON’T SPEAK HINDI.” Stranger: “WHAT??? YOU DON’T SPEAK HINDI?? What is this Tah-meel you speak of?” Me: “We don’t speak Hindi in the south. My family speaks Tamil.” Stranger: “So let me get this straight … you don’t? speak? Hindi???”

Stranger’s head burst into flames. End scene.

I am WELL aware that many Indians do in fact have an awareness of Indian geography, but in my personal experience, living in two areas with HUGE Indian populations, my whole entire culture has been repeatedly dismissed in one stupid conversation. I’m also well aware that there are plenty of North Indians who don’t speak Hindi but again, my feelings of being “marginalized” in the diaspora come not from one or two events, but a lifetime of feeling invisible or inferior because of my origins. This also happened to me multiple times while travelling in North India this summer — several people had no f-ng idea that Chennai even existed! I tend to have a very similar conversation with white people on a regular basis. So you’ll excuse me if I’m sensitive to the fact that there were no South Indian women takin’ it off for the calendar. At no point did I say that fair skinned women are not “authentically” Indian, nor did I say anything to support this type of action: “But trying to manipulate matters so that the “default” American desi phenotype is South Indian is certainly not.” I would just appreciate it if, for a change, I could look at something that’s supposed to be representing my country and actually see myself in it.

Regarding the “ambiguously brown” description, I stand by it. If I had seen the photos of those girls without seeing their names, I would have had a genuinely hard time figuring out that at least 7 were South Asian. I mean, hell, there are pictures of Penelope Cruz where I could swear she looks Desi (and no, I am not talking about the DESI(RED) pic). I showed the pictures to about 15 coworkers, friends and family and they agreed that several of the girls could pass for a number of different ethnicities. Please don’t tell me I need to get out more or anything like that — I have plenty of South Asian friends from all over the map. I myself have gotten mistaken (by educated people) for Mexican and Sicilian, by Sicilians. If the idea was to promote South Asian beauty and culture, I’m just not sure how they accomplished that by a) not representing more of South Asia or b) using models who, in my opinion, however feeblemended or idiotic it is, look ethnically ambiguous.

I don’t think that’s true. Of the examples mentioned (and Apu doesn’t count), are Parminder Nagra and Sendhil Ramamurthy really “the darkest of the desi color spectrum”? They are both close what I consider the middle of the spectrum. Or Kal Penn? I’m not saying you might not have a point in Hollywood casting darker skinned people as Indian, but I don’t think these people are the darkest the subcontinent has to offer.

I also don’t think it’s a North vs South thing. One doesn’t need to have walked all over India to know that there are legions of dark North Indians and fair South Indians.

That, I agree with. I am definitely unequivocally brown in a family with a lot of very light skinned women, on both sides, all South Indian. I have cousins who are whiter than my Jewish husband. I definitely heard a lot of “how come you’re so much darker than…”, or “poor x, so fair, but all her daughters are so dark…”. Amazingly, the closest I ever came to wishing I was lighter was wishing for pink, instead of brown, lips.
I agree with Anna, it does affect a lot of girls, and it’s annoying. I’m not sure why it didn’t affect me. I did get to hear darker skinned women being called beautiful as much as I heard the skin color comments, so that probably helped. It probably also has to do with who you grow up around; by chance, the “attractive” girls at my school were equally split between light and dark skinned. Although I did have friends who used “Fair and Lovely”; god knows what horrible chemicals were in that product.

Anyway, once I got wind of this I just had to hunt down any clips of the show I could. If anyone’s interested there’s video of the show online. Shilpa makes an entrance in a sari, which sort of surprised me though it shouldn’t have. Enjoy!

http://www.channel4.com/bigbrother/live/index.jsp

I also don’t think it’s a North vs South thing. One doesn’t need to have walked all over India to know that there are legions of dark North Indians and fair South Indians. Also this talk of Persian/Kashmiri/Pathan look being more pleasing to the eyes is foolish. It’s not the color of one’s skin that makes that person beautiful, it’s his/her features, proportions, gait e.t.c. And we haven’t gotten into the whole inner beauty thing yet!

The reason I worded that like that was to avoid the name-checking, most of us I assume know who wrote CREAM. If you had just said you object to that phrase, I could have clarified it.

I hope we can eventually be excellent to each other.