OTOH, after 1857 and the Indian rebellion, the party was pretty much over. It wasn’t just that Englishwomen were being brought in (this had been occurring in the prior decades too)– it’s just that after the spectacle of Brits hanging villagers from trees and blowing apart Brahmins strapped to cannons after the Rebellion was put down, it was a little difficult for the colonialists and those inferior dark-skinned hordes under them to associate in such a way anymore.

It’s interesting that Niall Ferguson is mentioned here, since he (and other imperial apologists of late) really do tend to downplay the unbelievably sanguinary ultraviolence of the Raj. The British committed atrocities in India after 1857 that rival anything the Gestapo or the Bolsheviks committed later, and in terms of sheer numbers killed the British in India alone, if anything exceed them.

Amartya Sen wasn’t kidding– those famines in late 1800′s that killed 32+ million folks in India, had British intentions written all over them. In the British work camps, Indian work rations were less than what the Nazis allowed for in the concentration camps (Mike Davis wasn’t the first to point this out). The prison facilities on Andaman Island were essentially death camps. And even as Indian mothers and children were shrivelling up and dying slowly and painfully on the streets of Madras, the British were shipping food out of India, taxing us (literally) to death, even imposing price controls at the farmer’s markets.

All of this was occurring of course, even as the British were just about wiping out the native populations of Australia, Tasmania and New Zealand (putting a bounty on the head of the natives tends to do that), tossing Boer women and kids into concentration camps that killed 30,000, committing their latest atrocities in Ireland, working Africans to death in the sub-Saharan diamond mines, later terror-bombing people in Somalia and Iraq. Even outside of their Empire, in e.g. China (which was never colonized and where the troops actually did manage to beat up on the Brits, French and Americans in some lesser-known engagements after 1842 and 1860), the British caused a royal mess– forcing Indian opium onto the Chinese people while burning down the beautiful imperial Summer Palace in the Opium Wars. The Victorians and their successors were a murderous, genocidal bunch. It’s no accident that the word “loot” is of Hindi origin.

That’s why I’ve long found it rather odd to argue that India was fortunate for having the British rather than the Nazis as rulers– for a very large section of Britain’s history in India, the Brits were more vicious and bloodthirsty than even the worst of the 20th-century dictators. And in 1930′s Germany at least, there was no democracy and free press after Hitler took power (and he never won anything close to a majority vote, as is sometimes falsely claimed– he manipulated Parliamentary politics after getting only a minority of the votes) and it’s unclear how much the people as a whole knew about the worst of the atrocities, plus Germany at the time was acting from a position of relative poverty and political weakness (Germany was only the most minor of colonial powers) and, even with all this being said, modern Germans very much abhor their country’s prior imperialistic and warlike acts in the 20th century.

Whereas the Brits in the 19th century committed their genocides and atrocities during a period when the people had some form of representative government and a good deal of prosperity, and even today, British folks like Niall Ferguson try to make excuses for what was a viciously genocidal and violent enterprise, that utterly wrecked the industries, economies and agriculture of India, among other places. In fact, the countries in the 19th century that made out best were the ones who defeated the British in battle– the Afghans, the South Americans (Brits got a nasty comeuppance around the Rio de Plata around 1804 or so), the Egyptians (Mohammed Ali), even the Haitians who defeated a British invasion in 1793 and were among the wealthier of the former colonies (though French and later American meddling there didn’t help matters). (Afghanistan was a surprisingly wealthy and culturally rich place in the 19th century, despite having truly crummy geography.)

In the 20th century of course, it’s notable that most colonies decolonized very much unlike India, i.e. with very violent struggle and defeat of the British in war, and that they later advanced economically and politically only after they’d tossed off the British yoke– Ireland in 1921 (Anglo-Irish War), Egypt, Israel, Cyprus and Aden after WWII.

This crap about the British as “civilizers” has always been little more than a bunch of carefully propagated lies. It’s a damn shame that Britain still has apologists trying to tell them.

There’s no hard feelings and it was more than a little funny. Its not guts so much as repetitive stupidity, but what the hell

Tru Dat. It’s not like I’m out every night drinking whisky in strip bars…sometimes I order a Martini.

sorry sahej, shouldn’t had said “your libido” when i was only discussing libido in a very abstract and over-the-top way. for what it’s worth, your position is probably the braver, as i’m only defending the status quo (which is, of course, a product of nature…but i digress again) and you’ve risked the wrath of not only misogynists like me but also 2nd and 3rd wave feminists.

these water aren’t easy to navigate, but i’m sure you could teach colonel jai and i some tricks.

I did not mistake your quoting of Ferguson as your own endorsement of anything he said. My objection is solely to your “Flo-jo” comment. I don’t know whether you think desi women’s lower halves are beautiful or ugly. The thing is – I don’t want to know. What is offensive is that it’s considered OK to say these in a forum where women are present.

I want to point out that I’m certainly not singling you out. This just spilled over from over two weeks of comments of this type. Others (Abhi, I’m looking at you too ) and certainly a lot of commenters are out there saying “This is what I like in a woman’s body” without being asked. As if the media giving us these indirect messages of what is hot weren’t enough.

Just to be clear – I think it’s equally bad if women say it.

Respect and peace.

ps: I otherwise very much like your posts and really appreciate that you keep some ideological balance on SM.

Yeah. Should have known better.

…groooaaaaaan…. Is there anything that IITians are allowed to not be absolutely #1 at? It is not the Indian Institute of Programming. That’s the IIP (with three campuses in Jammu, Salem and Mumbai).

I think some IITians are not experts at open heart surgery. And we call them the best ? thoooo…Do you know how few IITians have published novels? Shame.

Peace out.