Comments on: Draconian — Even By Israeli Standards http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Sriram http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-96277 Sriram Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:24:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-96277 <p>DQ, (#68)</p> <p>That is definitely a valid interpretation of the law and one that the administration will likely push. There are two reasons I will wait before going into a panic. First, we need to wait for the results of legal challenges to the law. There is a strong argument that the law violates the Habeas clause of the constitution. If the courts accept the argument, which is by no means a certainty but likely IMO, then this provision of the law will be deemed unconstitutional. Second, the tribunals are administered by the military. I've seen more than one military lawyer say that military commissions would not part too far from Article III courts simply because the military wants other countries to honor the Geneva Conventions when U.S. soldiers are captured. I also stated earlier that there are other reasons why the military is wary of the law's implementation. So, while there is definitely a reason to be concerned, I still have some modicum of faith that the courts and the military JAG offices are more competent and reasonable than the Justice Department or White House.</p> DQ, (#68)

That is definitely a valid interpretation of the law and one that the administration will likely push. There are two reasons I will wait before going into a panic. First, we need to wait for the results of legal challenges to the law. There is a strong argument that the law violates the Habeas clause of the constitution. If the courts accept the argument, which is by no means a certainty but likely IMO, then this provision of the law will be deemed unconstitutional. Second, the tribunals are administered by the military. I’ve seen more than one military lawyer say that military commissions would not part too far from Article III courts simply because the military wants other countries to honor the Geneva Conventions when U.S. soldiers are captured. I also stated earlier that there are other reasons why the military is wary of the law’s implementation. So, while there is definitely a reason to be concerned, I still have some modicum of faith that the courts and the military JAG offices are more competent and reasonable than the Justice Department or White House.

]]>
By: pied piper http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95973 pied piper Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:59:15 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95973 <p>Siddhartha -- Inspired by <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003887.html#comment95538">Kobayashi's comment</a>, I suggest you change the headline on this post to "Bush signs law banning arranged-mixed-marriages while in detention at Guantamamo."</p> Siddhartha – Inspired by Kobayashi’s comment, I suggest you change the headline on this post to “Bush signs law banning arranged-mixed-marriages while in detention at Guantamamo.”

]]>
By: Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95883 Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:21:48 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95883 <p>Great post Siddhartha!</p> <p>This ridiculous piece of legislation (suspension of habeus corpus for immigrants) will not sustain an almost certain 14th amendment challenge and should result in a swift striking down of the law.</p> <p>Also the atrocities committed by the IDF are evidenced by independent facts and the reaction/hypocracy of the Ummah on worse atrocities by the Russian army in Chechnya or Janjaweed in Somalia do not negate that independent reality.</p> Great post Siddhartha!

This ridiculous piece of legislation (suspension of habeus corpus for immigrants) will not sustain an almost certain 14th amendment challenge and should result in a swift striking down of the law.

Also the atrocities committed by the IDF are evidenced by independent facts and the reaction/hypocracy of the Ummah on worse atrocities by the Russian army in Chechnya or Janjaweed in Somalia do not negate that independent reality.

]]>
By: kurma avatar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95859 kurma avatar Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:33:09 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95859 <blockquote>It's because being cruel is not something any person should aspire to or condone. Tough, sometimes. Cruel, never. Are you willing to say, "cruel, never"? If you're not, the monster broke you already, and there's nothing left to fear. There's no sadder example of that than Israel, subject to one of history's worst campaigns of persecution, barely surviving the century, only to draw the world's contempt for repeated crimes against humanity.</blockquote> <p>Well said, Kobayashi.</p> It’s because being cruel is not something any person should aspire to or condone. Tough, sometimes. Cruel, never. Are you willing to say, “cruel, never”? If you’re not, the monster broke you already, and there’s nothing left to fear. There’s no sadder example of that than Israel, subject to one of history’s worst campaigns of persecution, barely surviving the century, only to draw the world’s contempt for repeated crimes against humanity.

Well said, Kobayashi.

]]>
By: Dharma Queen http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95858 Dharma Queen Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:23:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95858 <p>Rahul and Sriram,</p> <p>I found a video clip of an interview by Ken Olbermann of a law prof at George Washington U. You can view it at: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15318240 (sorry, haven't figured out how to link to videos here). Here's an excerpt:</p> <p>OLBERMANN: I want to start by asking you about a specific part of this act that lists one of the definitions of an unlawful enemy combatant as, quote, “a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a combatant status review tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the president or the secretary of defense.”</p> <p>Does that not basically mean that if Mr. Bush or Mr. Rumsfeld say so, anybody in this country, citizen or not, innocent or not, can end up being an unlawful enemy combatant?</p> <p>JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR: It certainly does. In fact, later on, it says that if you even give material support to an organization that the president deems connected to one of these groups, you too can be an enemy combatant.</p> <p>And the fact that he appoints this tribunal is meaningless. You know, standing behind him at the signing ceremony was his attorney general, who signed a memo that said that you could torture people, that you could do harm to them to the point of organ failure or death.</p> <p>So if he appoints someone like that to be attorney general, you can imagine who he’s going be putting on this board.</p> <p>OLBERMANN: Does this mean that under this law, ultimately the only thing keeping you, I, or the viewer out of Gitmo is the sanity and honesty of the president of the United States?</p> <p>TURLEY: It does. And it’s a huge sea change for our democracy. The framers created a system where we did not have to rely on the good graces or good mood of the president. In fact, Madison said that he created a system essentially to be run by devils, where they could not do harm, because we didn’t rely on their good motivations.</p> Rahul and Sriram,

I found a video clip of an interview by Ken Olbermann of a law prof at George Washington U. You can view it at: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15318240 (sorry, haven’t figured out how to link to videos here). Here’s an excerpt:

OLBERMANN: I want to start by asking you about a specific part of this act that lists one of the definitions of an unlawful enemy combatant as, quote, “a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a combatant status review tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the president or the secretary of defense.”

Does that not basically mean that if Mr. Bush or Mr. Rumsfeld say so, anybody in this country, citizen or not, innocent or not, can end up being an unlawful enemy combatant?

JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR: It certainly does. In fact, later on, it says that if you even give material support to an organization that the president deems connected to one of these groups, you too can be an enemy combatant.

And the fact that he appoints this tribunal is meaningless. You know, standing behind him at the signing ceremony was his attorney general, who signed a memo that said that you could torture people, that you could do harm to them to the point of organ failure or death.

So if he appoints someone like that to be attorney general, you can imagine who heÂ’s going be putting on this board.

OLBERMANN: Does this mean that under this law, ultimately the only thing keeping you, I, or the viewer out of Gitmo is the sanity and honesty of the president of the United States?

TURLEY: It does. And itÂ’s a huge sea change for our democracy. The framers created a system where we did not have to rely on the good graces or good mood of the president. In fact, Madison said that he created a system essentially to be run by devils, where they could not do harm, because we didnÂ’t rely on their good motivations.

]]>
By: wassuppp http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95851 wassuppp Mon, 23 Oct 2006 04:47:25 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95851 <blockquote>and the growing murmur of a supposed Democratic sweep in the midterm election (IÂ’ll believe that one when I see it</blockquote> <p>this is what the democrats (the donkey) will do to the republicans (the fat dude)in the midterm elections</p> <p><a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3130011932080891613&hl=en">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3130011932080891613&hl=en</a></p> and the growing murmur of a supposed Democratic sweep in the midterm election (IÂ’ll believe that one when I see it

this is what the democrats (the donkey) will do to the republicans (the fat dude)in the midterm elections

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3130011932080891613&hl=en

]]>
By: Sriram http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95826 Sriram Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:21:46 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95826 <p>Just to add to the last couple comments, the Constitution specifically denies the federal government the power to suspend habeas corpus. The issue is whether the habeas corpus provisions still apply to unlawful enemy combatants. There are arguments on both ways and it's an issue that will likely reach the Supreme Court. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, CSPAN aired an excellent panel discussion on the issue. It was interesting to hear the opinions of military lawyers. It seems as they would much rather have these hearings take place in Article III courts because there is simply no precedent to provide guidance to the officers drafting the rules and procedures for the military commissions.</p> Just to add to the last couple comments, the Constitution specifically denies the federal government the power to suspend habeas corpus. The issue is whether the habeas corpus provisions still apply to unlawful enemy combatants. There are arguments on both ways and it’s an issue that will likely reach the Supreme Court. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, CSPAN aired an excellent panel discussion on the issue. It was interesting to hear the opinions of military lawyers. It seems as they would much rather have these hearings take place in Article III courts because there is simply no precedent to provide guidance to the officers drafting the rules and procedures for the military commissions.

]]>
By: Rahul http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95797 Rahul Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:29:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95797 <p>DQ, I do not think that this is the case, but more legally savvy folks should comment. Habeas corpus is being denied "only" to aliens named as enemy combatants, as I understand it. Not that it excuses things.</p> <p>Even without this latest excess, however, there have been tons of wake up calls for Americans, but they've all been systematically responded to with gigantic snores. If people haven't been bothered yet by: * The aggressive use of surveillance records (including access to library records) under the Patriot Act without any effective supervision by Congress, * The Hooveresque monitoring (yes, that vast sucking sound you hear is from the information vacuum) of peaceful protesters by the FBI, * The use of warrantless wiretapping, * The recording of large numbers of calls to infer patterns (which will possibly provide some work for the good hardworking people implementing the first 3 ideas) why should one more intrusion tip the balance?</p> <p>And as long as voters keep electing pusillanimous politicos like Arlen Specter, dissembling demagogues like Orrin Hatch, and hypocritical humbugs like John McCain (yes, I am an alliteration aficionado! A veritable verbal vidwan!), I don't see how things can get any better.</p> <p>The only amendment that matters, after all, is the second. Yeehaw!</p> <p>"When they came for me, there was nobody to complain, because they didn't know why I had disappeared, or where I was."</p> DQ, I do not think that this is the case, but more legally savvy folks should comment. Habeas corpus is being denied “only” to aliens named as enemy combatants, as I understand it. Not that it excuses things.

Even without this latest excess, however, there have been tons of wake up calls for Americans, but they’ve all been systematically responded to with gigantic snores. If people haven’t been bothered yet by: * The aggressive use of surveillance records (including access to library records) under the Patriot Act without any effective supervision by Congress, * The Hooveresque monitoring (yes, that vast sucking sound you hear is from the information vacuum) of peaceful protesters by the FBI, * The use of warrantless wiretapping, * The recording of large numbers of calls to infer patterns (which will possibly provide some work for the good hardworking people implementing the first 3 ideas) why should one more intrusion tip the balance?

And as long as voters keep electing pusillanimous politicos like Arlen Specter, dissembling demagogues like Orrin Hatch, and hypocritical humbugs like John McCain (yes, I am an alliteration aficionado! A veritable verbal vidwan!), I don’t see how things can get any better.

The only amendment that matters, after all, is the second. Yeehaw!

“When they came for me, there was nobody to complain, because they didn’t know why I had disappeared, or where I was.”

]]>
By: Dharma Queen http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95740 Dharma Queen Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:08:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95740 <p>Rahul and GB, thanks for the clarifications.</p> <p>From the commentary I've read, though, I derived the impression that the suspension of habeas corpus would apply to citizens as well <i>if the President or Sec of Defense decided to name them enemy combatants.</i> Perhaps this is not being made sufficiently clear through the media? One commentator said that it was the first time the American system, "designed to be run by devils", allowed for no checks or balances against a bad president. In 1930s Germany, the granting by Hindenburg of authoritarian powers to Hitler was a shocker for the left - in a country like the States, which embodies the democratic tradition, it seems incredible that people don't understand that the 'bell is tolling' for <i>them</i>...</p> Rahul and GB, thanks for the clarifications.

From the commentary I’ve read, though, I derived the impression that the suspension of habeas corpus would apply to citizens as well if the President or Sec of Defense decided to name them enemy combatants. Perhaps this is not being made sufficiently clear through the media? One commentator said that it was the first time the American system, “designed to be run by devils”, allowed for no checks or balances against a bad president. In 1930s Germany, the granting by Hindenburg of authoritarian powers to Hitler was a shocker for the left – in a country like the States, which embodies the democratic tradition, it seems incredible that people don’t understand that the ‘bell is tolling’ for them

]]>
By: GB http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/10/20/between_the_rad/comment-page-2/#comment-95735 GB Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:22:03 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3887#comment-95735 <p>DQ:</p> <blockquote>Please don't tell me that the simple right to appear before a judge to challenge one's detention is a subtlety for most American voters...</blockquote> <p>Sorry for being cryptic. What I meant to convey is that lots of people are unclear whether <i>habeas corpus</i> extends to non-citizens. Admittedly, when I say "lots", there is an extrapolation involved. I found that many 1st-year, Ph.D.-level U.S. students are confused over civil right versus voting rights. This confusion may well extend to the populace at large. This may be why the issue of <i>how much of a loss it would be to the national ethos to selectively suspend habeas corpus</i> -- especially if said suspension will most likely affect only foreigners -- appears to be a murky area (maybe I shouldn't have said "subtlety") for the uncommitted, generally-politically-disengaged, superficially concerned-about-national-security type of swing voter.</p> DQ:

Please don’t tell me that the simple right to appear before a judge to challenge one’s detention is a subtlety for most American voters…

Sorry for being cryptic. What I meant to convey is that lots of people are unclear whether habeas corpus extends to non-citizens. Admittedly, when I say “lots”, there is an extrapolation involved. I found that many 1st-year, Ph.D.-level U.S. students are confused over civil right versus voting rights. This confusion may well extend to the populace at large. This may be why the issue of how much of a loss it would be to the national ethos to selectively suspend habeas corpus — especially if said suspension will most likely affect only foreigners — appears to be a murky area (maybe I shouldn’t have said “subtlety”) for the uncommitted, generally-politically-disengaged, superficially concerned-about-national-security type of swing voter.

]]>