No, Muslims believe that all babies are born in the state of fitrah (belief in the oneness of God) So according to Muslim belief, babies cannot for example be born as Hindus as all babies are strict monotheists when they are born. But they are not Muslim per se either as monotheism is also a belief found in other religious like Judaism etc.

Razib, I see your point, but I wouldn’t say that Christianity doesn’t have a strong grasp in Europe. Quite the opposite, actually. In fact, I’d say that Christianity is far more ingrained in parts of Europe (remember the whole Protestant Reformation? Martin Luther? Hang on while I look up the Pope’s address on Wikipedia…aha, “1 Vatican Square”) than in America. But for whatever reason, it just doesn’t feel as threatening to the heathens, atheists, unbelievers, and apostates.

I don’t think the hierarchy really makes a lot of sense. I concede the point about Abrahamic God being all kinds of scary. But any and every religion can turn fundamentalist, given the right societal prodding. Hinduism and Buddhism might seem benign…until you’re a Muslim in Gujurat in 2002, or a Christian in Sri Lanka in 2003. There have been militant sects that advocate(d) violence in practically every religion. So yeah, I guess the hierarchy reflects something about the “here and now,” but I don’t think it says anything about the “why and how.”

Fundamentalism is not something inherent in “their” (Abrahamic) concept of God. Broadly speaking, it’s what happens when a group feels threatened, rightly or wrongly. Threats, perceived or real, push people to think in extremes. Suddenly normally rational people are condoning the removal of habeas corpus, or advocating redirecting water resources, or partying in the streets when their nation has developed an atomic bomb. In the right light, the most horrifying things seem wonderful.

As far as I can tell, neither Christianity nor Islam is exactly “endangered,” though. Both have hundreds of millions of adherents, yet each preaches a message of being under threat (Protestants, Sunnis, and Shi’ites, in particular) of persecution and extinction. Hell, I’m just continually surprised people are so consistently stupid as to buy into it.

Funny you should bring up Dawkins…I just got into a long discussion about meme theory today, and his name kept coming up. I guess my main beef with Dawkins and this “rationality uber alles” stance is that religion fills a niche in human societal structures. I may not happen to agree with it, I may not like much a lot of what comes out of it. But until it’s replaced by something better…um…well. Rationality won’t triumph over anything, is all. It’s like discussing how great it’ll be when mammals decide to stop using our livers*. Yeah, good luck. Maybe one day, but not anytime soon.

*I would have said “vermiform appendix,” but that’s kind of a human-only thing. And anyway, some people would take issue with the idea that religion serves no purpose. Myself included, come to think of it.

Do you even know the basic tenets of Ahmadis, which is a very liberal and progressive movement in Islam?<

Actually I know Ahmadiyas quite well, have done Jumma prayers at their mosques, etc. One interesting sidenote is their attitudes towards women are pretty orthodox. Although women are quite active, they are always in deep hijab, which I found interesting.

And of course the idea of having a central Huzur as leader of the global Ahmadi jamaat (who lives in London and whose Friday sermons are broadcast to all jamaats worldwide), is fundamentally an orthodox idea of leadership and divine gift, etc.

It is unfortunate that it takes a muslim to give up islam in order to be liberal.<

That’s only true if you haven’t read a book or a newspaper since 1998, which obviously you haven’t.

But don’t muslims believe all babies are born muslim?<

What a ridiculous circle jerk of a blog thread.

you did respond. i read it. but now it’s gone…?

Did I respond to your query – “I’d love to hear your hierarchy of religions.” I think, I did. Or, did I? Man, I really need to curb the daytime cocktails and the funny cigarettes. In any case, here goes again, I think. Deja F*%in Vu

From worst to best ( relatively speaking ) Islam Christianity Judaism Sikhsim Hinduism Buddhism

Disclaimer, I am an atheist.

FWIW, lotsa folks have studied diff religious co-variances… I googled around a bit and I found this particular example (look for Table 4) but there are ton’s more… They’ll quibble w.r.t. details but generally map Religion vs. GDP sorta like this (highest to lowest) -

• Protestant
• Catholic
• Misc
• Orthodox
• Islam

Fight amongst yourselves about what the data means and if it’s indicative… But there are other studies out there…

Of course Kritic views religion as merely a set of ideas, a philosophy; and some ideas are better than others.

But those who are truely within the religious fold do not recognize the legitimacy of other religions, for that would undermine their belief system (I mean, some do out of practicality, but it’s a condradiction…unless you’re a buddhist maybe).

So, ironically, the defense of religion on cultural/racial grounds is left to those who have no respect for religion’s claim to truth.