Comments on: The Transporter http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: sakshi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88613 sakshi Fri, 22 Sep 2006 04:04:54 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88613 <blockquote>I said "non-violent civil disobedience was a fairly significant contributor to Indian independence."</blockquote> <p>I agree. However, many Indians feel that its contribution has been deliberately overrated...history is written by the winners, etc etc...Unfortunately sometimes they go to the other extreme and deny all credit to the non-violent movement.... The truth...as someone quoted Confucius recently...is probably somewhere in between...</p> I said “non-violent civil disobedience was a fairly significant contributor to Indian independence.”

I agree. However, many Indians feel that its contribution has been deliberately overrated…history is written by the winners, etc etc…Unfortunately sometimes they go to the other extreme and deny all credit to the non-violent movement…. The truth…as someone quoted Confucius recently…is probably somewhere in between…

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By: Kurma http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88608 Kurma Fri, 22 Sep 2006 03:30:45 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88608 <p>Salil, that was an incredible story!</p> Salil, that was an incredible story!

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By: Salil Maniktahla http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88601 Salil Maniktahla Fri, 22 Sep 2006 02:22:56 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88601 <p>I never said it was the entirety of it. I took issue with the notion that turning the other cheek was somehow responsible for India being colonized in the first place. I said "non-violent civil disobedience was a fairly significant contributor to Indian independence."</p> <p>Y'all can hate on me and the Mahatma all you want. I can take it. Please sir, can I have another?</p> I never said it was the entirety of it. I took issue with the notion that turning the other cheek was somehow responsible for India being colonized in the first place. I said “non-violent civil disobedience was a fairly significant contributor to Indian independence.”

Y’all can hate on me and the Mahatma all you want. I can take it. Please sir, can I have another?

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By: sakshi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88600 sakshi Fri, 22 Sep 2006 02:14:27 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88600 <p>Yeti:</p> <p>Funny that you should mention the naval mutiny. I was reading Eric Hobsbawm's 'The Age of Extremes(1914-1991)' very recently, and it explicitly said the naval mutiny was the event that 'convinced the British that, with the loss of control over the armed forces, their time was up in India' (I paraphrase here). I was surprised because the mutiny plays almost no role in the official Independence movement narrative we hear in India.</p> <p>Unfortunately the book gave no references for the conclusion; in fact, the remark was thrown in an offhand way, as if the fact was obvious. Also, Hobsbawm is a highly-respected non-partisan writer, so there is no reason to expect bias; so overall it just left me confused :(.</p> Yeti:

Funny that you should mention the naval mutiny. I was reading Eric Hobsbawm’s ‘The Age of Extremes(1914-1991)’ very recently, and it explicitly said the naval mutiny was the event that ‘convinced the British that, with the loss of control over the armed forces, their time was up in India’ (I paraphrase here). I was surprised because the mutiny plays almost no role in the official Independence movement narrative we hear in India.

Unfortunately the book gave no references for the conclusion; in fact, the remark was thrown in an offhand way, as if the fact was obvious. Also, Hobsbawm is a highly-respected non-partisan writer, so there is no reason to expect bias; so overall it just left me confused :( .

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By: Yeti http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88596 Yeti Fri, 22 Sep 2006 01:42:26 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88596 <p>A lot of things happened to lead to the Brits leaving. Yes, the noncooperation movement played a role in it. Bose played some role in it. There were also accounts of rural rebellions that happened at different times throughout British rule, as well as various smaller armed struggles by people such as Bhagat Singh, etc. Do most people know also that there was a massive <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombay_Mutiny">naval mutiny</a> in 1946? This was one of the killing blows. This may or may not count as "violent" but it was undoubtedly <i>not</i> a part of the overly worshipped Gandhian struggle.</p> <p>The nonviolent noncooperation movement was a part of the freedom movement. That's it. A part. Not the entirety of it, nor can you necessarily imply that it was somehow the most important element of it. And by saying "that's the attitude that kicked the British out" you keep a certain myth going.</p> A lot of things happened to lead to the Brits leaving. Yes, the noncooperation movement played a role in it. Bose played some role in it. There were also accounts of rural rebellions that happened at different times throughout British rule, as well as various smaller armed struggles by people such as Bhagat Singh, etc. Do most people know also that there was a massive naval mutiny in 1946? This was one of the killing blows. This may or may not count as “violent” but it was undoubtedly not a part of the overly worshipped Gandhian struggle.

The nonviolent noncooperation movement was a part of the freedom movement. That’s it. A part. Not the entirety of it, nor can you necessarily imply that it was somehow the most important element of it. And by saying “that’s the attitude that kicked the British out” you keep a certain myth going.

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By: Jazz http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88549 Jazz Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:08:10 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88549 <p>kush: i think the brits left because they wanted to, not because we wanted them to. the algerians on the other hand forced the issue for the french. the brits were tactful (unlike the french) by not imposing english/banning the local language/customs, so there was never a critical mass of indians that hated them so much as to resort to the algerian way. non-violence, while high on moral ground, would not physically eject them (assuming they really really wanted to stay).</p> kush: i think the brits left because they wanted to, not because we wanted them to. the algerians on the other hand forced the issue for the french. the brits were tactful (unlike the french) by not imposing english/banning the local language/customs, so there was never a critical mass of indians that hated them so much as to resort to the algerian way. non-violence, while high on moral ground, would not physically eject them (assuming they really really wanted to stay).

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By: Salil Maniktahla http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88547 Salil Maniktahla Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:04:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88547 <p>Jeet:</p> <p>Twice. Once barely counted, I was only in there for an hour, for driving on suspended license. But that's another story for a meetup. :-)</p> <p>I wonder how many Mutineers have done time?</p> Jeet:

Twice. Once barely counted, I was only in there for an hour, for driving on suspended license. But that’s another story for a meetup. :-)

I wonder how many Mutineers have done time?

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By: Jeet http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88545 Jeet Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:52:48 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88545 <p>Salil, Man that was one hell of a night for you! seriously tho, how many times have u been to the 'pen?</p> Salil, Man that was one hell of a night for you! seriously tho, how many times have u been to the ‘pen?

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By: Kush Tandon http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88544 Kush Tandon Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:49:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88544 <p><i>salil: don't you think the state of affairs in britain post ww-2 had more to do with the brits leaving than non-violent marches?</i></p> <p><b>Yes and no.</b></p> <p>The most important thing is the way British left. It did not become IndoChine or Algeria. They had figured that governing India was becoming impossible - all the crippling non-cooperation movement, and even the British Indian Army had started showing signs of being mutinous.</p> <p>Clement Atlee, the post WW2 PM was committed to give India its independence, but Churchill and his followers (then out of power) were still adamant. When Mountbatten went to meet Churchill just before taking his assignment to India, he sat almost sullen for an hour.</p> <p>The decolonization (freedom struggle) was not bloody for most part, sure, immediately after partition riots were. That (nonviolent freedom struggle) has had helped India to get on its feet and attempt to be a secular democracy, closely modeled after UK parliamentary system. It has had <b>some serious hiccups</b> but has done better than most of the countries freed at around that time.</p> <p>Most important is the legacy that we seen in action even today in Myanmar.</p> salil: don’t you think the state of affairs in britain post ww-2 had more to do with the brits leaving than non-violent marches?

Yes and no.

The most important thing is the way British left. It did not become IndoChine or Algeria. They had figured that governing India was becoming impossible – all the crippling non-cooperation movement, and even the British Indian Army had started showing signs of being mutinous.

Clement Atlee, the post WW2 PM was committed to give India its independence, but Churchill and his followers (then out of power) were still adamant. When Mountbatten went to meet Churchill just before taking his assignment to India, he sat almost sullen for an hour.

The decolonization (freedom struggle) was not bloody for most part, sure, immediately after partition riots were. That (nonviolent freedom struggle) has had helped India to get on its feet and attempt to be a secular democracy, closely modeled after UK parliamentary system. It has had some serious hiccups but has done better than most of the countries freed at around that time.

Most important is the legacy that we seen in action even today in Myanmar.

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By: Salil Maniktahla http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/the_transporter/comment-page-1/#comment-88541 Salil Maniktahla Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:31:18 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3804#comment-88541 <p>Jazz,</p> <p>I deliberately didn't give any of them any kind of subjective weights. I wasn't there. I would certainly agree that a great many factors came into play, and one was that Britain after WWII was just too damn busy rebuilding to hold India down and choke the life from her, though a few select individuals certainly did try now and again.</p> <p>My point was that non-violence did have something to do with India becoming a free country, and maybe even more importantly, in attaining one of the highest points of moral high ground in all of human history.</p> <p>So kudos to the cabbie. My satirical photoshopped picture not withstanding, he's got the right idea. Unlike <a href="http://maniktahla.blogspot.com/2005/02/my-visit-to-big-house.html">this bastard</a>.</p> Jazz,

I deliberately didn’t give any of them any kind of subjective weights. I wasn’t there. I would certainly agree that a great many factors came into play, and one was that Britain after WWII was just too damn busy rebuilding to hold India down and choke the life from her, though a few select individuals certainly did try now and again.

My point was that non-violence did have something to do with India becoming a free country, and maybe even more importantly, in attaining one of the highest points of moral high ground in all of human history.

So kudos to the cabbie. My satirical photoshopped picture not withstanding, he’s got the right idea. Unlike this bastard.

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