Comments on: Life in the Stone Age wasn’t easy http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Kritic http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-3/#comment-89212 Kritic Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:41:29 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89212 <p>Ikram - I have no qualms accepting your numbers. If these are correct, then I stand corrected. However, fact remains that Pakistan is one of the worse places on the planet for minorities. esp, if the happen to be Hindu. And, fact remains, that the Pakistani (read Muslim)left is a non-existent entity. Under the circumstances.</p> Ikram – I have no qualms accepting your numbers. If these are correct, then I stand corrected. However, fact remains that Pakistan is one of the worse places on the planet for minorities. esp, if the happen to be Hindu. And, fact remains, that the Pakistani (read Muslim)left is a non-existent entity. Under the circumstances.

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By: Ikram http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-3/#comment-89176 Ikram Mon, 25 Sep 2006 08:01:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89176 <p>Kritic -- I hope your "Pakistani academic friend" comes through with the 1951 census data, but if not, you can find secondary sources extremely easily on the web. For example, this bharat-rakshak paper gives the % of non-Muslims in West PK as <a href="http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE6-2/sridhar.html">3.56% in 1951</a>. According to the Population Association of Pakistan, it was <a href="http://www.pap.org.pk/statistics/population.htm#tab1.4">3.48% in 1998</a> (not including Ahmadi Muslims, to maintain comparability). That only took 10 seconds of googling.</p> <p>Also, your wiki quote is incorrect in stating there are separate electorates for minorities -- these were abolished in 2002. (Now all voters have an equally useless vote).</p> <p>As for the Dawn, it is what is claims to be, <a href="http://www.dawn.com/fixed/group/group.htm">"Pakistan's most widely-circulated English language newspaper"</a>. Founded by Jinnah, its never been a mass paper -- English literacy rates are very low. (I thought circulation was about 150K -- where did you get your lower number?). I used to like The Herald magazine too. It's not available on the net, but you could ask your academic friend to help you get it from a good library.</p> Kritic — I hope your “Pakistani academic friend” comes through with the 1951 census data, but if not, you can find secondary sources extremely easily on the web. For example, this bharat-rakshak paper gives the % of non-Muslims in West PK as 3.56% in 1951. According to the Population Association of Pakistan, it was 3.48% in 1998 (not including Ahmadi Muslims, to maintain comparability). That only took 10 seconds of googling.

Also, your wiki quote is incorrect in stating there are separate electorates for minorities — these were abolished in 2002. (Now all voters have an equally useless vote).

As for the Dawn, it is what is claims to be, “Pakistan’s most widely-circulated English language newspaper”. Founded by Jinnah, its never been a mass paper — English literacy rates are very low. (I thought circulation was about 150K — where did you get your lower number?). I used to like The Herald magazine too. It’s not available on the net, but you could ask your academic friend to help you get it from a good library.

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By: kritic http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-3/#comment-89151 kritic Mon, 25 Sep 2006 02:45:34 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89151 <p>Nearly sixty years later, a Hindu allowed to join the <a href="http://ia.rediff.com/news/2006/sep/24pak.htm?q=np&file=.htm">Pakistani Army</a>. And, If he converts to Islam, maybe they will promote him.</p> Nearly sixty years later, a Hindu allowed to join the Pakistani Army. And, If he converts to Islam, maybe they will promote him.

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By: Kritic http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-2/#comment-89150 Kritic Mon, 25 Sep 2006 02:41:57 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89150 <p>Amfd (the original) -</p> <p>Very unfair allegation in # 79.</p> <p>I have requested a Pakistani academic friend of mine to provide me with the numbers on Hindus in Pakistan and, of course, a report on their lot. Shall keep you posted.</p> <p>Interim, here are some very revealing and, in my opinion, indefensible, not to mention, despicable tid bits. Quotes are from wikipedia. Link below.</p> <p>"Hindus as a minority in Pakistan have had considerably fewer privileges, rights and protections in comparison to minorities in India, which constitutionally avows itself secular and giving of equal rights to its religious minorities including the Muslim, Christian and Sikh communities"</p> <p>"Hindus are allotted separate electorates (<i>in pakistan</i>) to vote by, but their political importance is virtually nil."</p> <p>"The intense religious conservatism and politically charged environment in Pakistani Punjab offers limited freedoms for Hindus."</p> <p>"The increasing Islamization of Pakistan and antagonisation against a majority Hindu India has forced many Hindus to leave Hinduism and convert to other faiths such as Buddhism and Christianity."</p> <p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan</p> <p>p.s. if i am not mistaken, the much quoted Pakistani newspaper, the dawn has a circulation of less than fifty thousand. just to put it in context.</p> Amfd (the original) -

Very unfair allegation in # 79.

I have requested a Pakistani academic friend of mine to provide me with the numbers on Hindus in Pakistan and, of course, a report on their lot. Shall keep you posted.

Interim, here are some very revealing and, in my opinion, indefensible, not to mention, despicable tid bits. Quotes are from wikipedia. Link below.

“Hindus as a minority in Pakistan have had considerably fewer privileges, rights and protections in comparison to minorities in India, which constitutionally avows itself secular and giving of equal rights to its religious minorities including the Muslim, Christian and Sikh communities”

“Hindus are allotted separate electorates (in pakistan) to vote by, but their political importance is virtually nil.”

“The intense religious conservatism and politically charged environment in Pakistani Punjab offers limited freedoms for Hindus.”

“The increasing Islamization of Pakistan and antagonisation against a majority Hindu India has forced many Hindus to leave Hinduism and convert to other faiths such as Buddhism and Christianity.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan

p.s. if i am not mistaken, the much quoted Pakistani newspaper, the dawn has a circulation of less than fifty thousand. just to put it in context.

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By: Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-2/#comment-89145 Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery Mon, 25 Sep 2006 01:50:45 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89145 <p><i>But trying the point further, these right wingers seem to be obsessed with Muslim women. Muslim women are ofcourse fair skinned and I would rather have them. Did I tell you my love for Priyanka Gandhi ;)</i></p> <p>Dont be so freaking lame and change you god damn moniker! SM INTERN: Please ask this guy/gal to change the id so as not to create confusion with my id.</p> But trying the point further, these right wingers seem to be obsessed with Muslim women. Muslim women are ofcourse fair skinned and I would rather have them. Did I tell you my love for Priyanka Gandhi ;)

Dont be so freaking lame and change you god damn moniker! SM INTERN: Please ask this guy/gal to change the id so as not to create confusion with my id.

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By: not AlMD http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-2/#comment-89109 not AlMD Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:47:21 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89109 <blockquote>I'd be very much surprised if the minorities (Hindus/Christians) have increased in Pakistan and Bangladesh like in India.. Ofcourse Pakistan created new minorities like Ahmediyas, but that is a different issue.</blockquote> <p>Like I meantioned before Minorities have decreased in Bangladesh and Pakistan because they migrated into India. The latest figures on illegal Bangladeshis in India are <b>20 million</b> which is only about 2% of our total population. But the right wingers like their counterparts in the US like to raise hue and cry over the immigrants because they are muslims</p> I’d be very much surprised if the minorities (Hindus/Christians) have increased in Pakistan and Bangladesh like in India.. Ofcourse Pakistan created new minorities like Ahmediyas, but that is a different issue.

Like I meantioned before Minorities have decreased in Bangladesh and Pakistan because they migrated into India. The latest figures on illegal Bangladeshis in India are 20 million which is only about 2% of our total population. But the right wingers like their counterparts in the US like to raise hue and cry over the immigrants because they are muslims

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By: not AlMD http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-2/#comment-89107 not AlMD Sun, 24 Sep 2006 20:39:47 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89107 <p>But trying the point further, these right wingers seem to be obsessed with Muslim women. Muslim women are ofcourse fair skinned and I would rather have them. Did I tell you my love for Priyanka Gandhi ;)</p> But trying the point further, these right wingers seem to be obsessed with Muslim women. Muslim women are ofcourse fair skinned and I would rather have them. Did I tell you my love for Priyanka Gandhi ;)

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By: Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-2/#comment-89079 Al_Mujahid_for_debauchery Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:25:56 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89079 <blockquote>I was pointing out to Ikram that the people who post these numbers of diminishing Hindu population usually have extreme right wing Indian groups as their source who also happen to obsess with the sexuality of desi Muslim women.</blockquote> <blockquote>Dude AMFD, that was way too overboard.</blockquote> <p>I should have clarified. I was referring to the attitudes of the people who are the source of these numbers and not SM commenters.</p> I was pointing out to Ikram that the people who post these numbers of diminishing Hindu population usually have extreme right wing Indian groups as their source who also happen to obsess with the sexuality of desi Muslim women.
Dude AMFD, that was way too overboard.

I should have clarified. I was referring to the attitudes of the people who are the source of these numbers and not SM commenters.

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By: Ponniyin Selvan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-2/#comment-89065 Ponniyin Selvan Sun, 24 Sep 2006 09:44:24 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89065 <p>Regarding the number of Hindus in Pakistan or Bangladesh, people can quote reliable statistics (say from the Govt. of Pakistan/Bnagladesh). A lot of people would be interested in finding it out. Indian census takes religion into account and Muslims have grown from 8% in 1951 (I think) to 13.4% in 2001. I'd be very much surprised if the minorities (Hindus/Christians) have increased in Pakistan and Bangladesh like in India.. Ofcourse Pakistan created new minorities like Ahmediyas, but that is a different issue.</p> <p>Idea of India is different than the idea of Pakistan / Bangladesh. One can argue that Indians have not fully realised the idea. Ignoring the differences in vision statements of India and Pakistan/Bangladesh and trying to rate them on the same scale is incorrect.. A typical retort for this argument from the 'secular'/'liberal' 'South asians' is that this is a Hindutvadi argument.</p> Regarding the number of Hindus in Pakistan or Bangladesh, people can quote reliable statistics (say from the Govt. of Pakistan/Bnagladesh). A lot of people would be interested in finding it out. Indian census takes religion into account and Muslims have grown from 8% in 1951 (I think) to 13.4% in 2001. I’d be very much surprised if the minorities (Hindus/Christians) have increased in Pakistan and Bangladesh like in India.. Ofcourse Pakistan created new minorities like Ahmediyas, but that is a different issue.

Idea of India is different than the idea of Pakistan / Bangladesh. One can argue that Indians have not fully realised the idea. Ignoring the differences in vision statements of India and Pakistan/Bangladesh and trying to rate them on the same scale is incorrect.. A typical retort for this argument from the ‘secular’/'liberal’ ‘South asians’ is that this is a Hindutvadi argument.

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By: Beige Siege http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/09/21/life_in_the_sto/comment-page-2/#comment-89062 Beige Siege Sun, 24 Sep 2006 08:24:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3805#comment-89062 <blockquote>You'd be surprised how many indian nationalist types (such as myself) are interested in hearing the pro-democracy pakistani point of view. As it stands I think the discourse on subcontinental politics is dominated by indian liberals, doing a favor to no one, imo. </blockquote> <p>SMR and others - Check out these guys. I am not sure how representative the newspaper Dawn is, but I believe it is the largest circulated English daily in Pakistan. Personally I find Cawasjee too backward looking(Elderly Unclely :), Ayaz Amir is just plain stupid and my favorite Irfan Hussian the most insightful and brilliant. Ofcourse I may be biased because his opinions are similar to mine.</p> <p><a href="http://dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm">Cowasjee</a> <a href="http://dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm">Ayaz Amir</a> <a href="http://dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm">Irfan Hussain</a></p> <blockquote>I was pointing out to Ikram that the people who post these numbers of diminishing Hindu population usually have extreme right wing Indian groups as their source who also happen to obsess with the sexuality of desi Muslim women.</blockquote> <p>Dude AMFD, that was way too overboard.</p> You’d be surprised how many indian nationalist types (such as myself) are interested in hearing the pro-democracy pakistani point of view. As it stands I think the discourse on subcontinental politics is dominated by indian liberals, doing a favor to no one, imo.

SMR and others – Check out these guys. I am not sure how representative the newspaper Dawn is, but I believe it is the largest circulated English daily in Pakistan. Personally I find Cawasjee too backward looking(Elderly Unclely :) , Ayaz Amir is just plain stupid and my favorite Irfan Hussian the most insightful and brilliant. Ofcourse I may be biased because his opinions are similar to mine.

Cowasjee Ayaz Amir Irfan Hussain

I was pointing out to Ikram that the people who post these numbers of diminishing Hindu population usually have extreme right wing Indian groups as their source who also happen to obsess with the sexuality of desi Muslim women.

Dude AMFD, that was way too overboard.

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