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yeah, by now I realised also there are a few individuals who either a. like to troll, or b. are quite psychotic and love to spin a brown-man-oppressed angle on every story. Thanks for bringing me up to date though. And no probs for the support.;)

I suspect the “No kidding” phrase you included in your post #31 may have been the reason for inadvertantly triggering the ire on the part of a couple of other commenters here.

Some people are well-meaning and, I think, have just misread your original post(s). However, there are also a lot of trolls lurking on SM who are looking for suitable targets towards whom to direct their “crusade” — some here just to make mischief, others who are normally-sane individuals who become wildly irrational and quite psychotic if they perceive otherwise-innocuous statements to touch some kind of raw nerve. Be careful of falling into the trap of “guilt by association”. It’s been happening a lot on this blog recently, and beyond a certain point people just see what they want to see instead of what’s actually there.

The pros and cons of the British Raj have already been extensively debated on SM on multiple previous occasions and the general consensus is that, although there were some positive by-products (along with a lot of negative ones), overall it was a Very Bad Thing because in the final analysis there is no moral justification for colonialism (despite whatever claims may have been made about “civilising missions” etc). Imperialism, particularly when motivated by a desire to gain wealth, power and territory, is wrong full-stop. I’m not saying you disagree with this (you obviously don’t, as per post #137), but I thought I should bring you up to speed on matters since you seem to be a relatively new arrival on SM (as far as I know).

Thanks again for your support the other day, by the way.

Mutineers, sorry to hog so much space but it worries me if someone thinks British rule had any merit or simple decency.

I didn’t say I thought the Raj was a positive thing. I just pointed out that even some Indians look back on that period with feelings of nostalgia.

Notes from the Net: In 1901, before the death of Queen Victoria, writer William Digby looked back to the 1876 Madras famine and asserted: “When the part played by the British Empire in the 19th century is regarded by the historian 50 years hence, the unnecessary deaths of millions of Indians would be its principal and most notorious monument.”

In the 19th century, drought was treated, particularly by the English in India, as an opportunity for reasserting sovereignty, for collecting money.

A particular villain was Lord Lytton. During 1876 Lytton ignored all efforts to alleviate the suffering of millions of peasants in the Madras region and concentrated on preparing for Queen Victoria’s investiture as Empress of India. The highlight of the celebrations was a week-long feast at which 68,000 dignitaries heard her promise the nation “happiness, prosperity and welfare”.

Lytton did nothing to check the huge hikes in grain prices, Economic “modernization” led household and village reserves to be transferred to central depots using recently built railroads. Much was exported to England, where there had been poor harvests. Relief funds were scanty because Lytton was eager to finance military campaigns in Afghanistan. Conditions in emergency camps were so terrible that some peasants preferred to go to jail. This was all of little consequence to English administrators who, as believers in Malthusianism, thought that famine was nature’s response to Indian breeding.

The late 19th century was celebrated in every school as the golden period of imperialism. we’ve long been encouraged to acknowledge its economic benefits. Yet, as Davis points out, “there was no increase in India’s per capita income from 1757 to 1947″. In Egypt, too, the financial difficulties caused to peasants by famine encouraged European creditors to override the millennia-old tradition that tenancy was guaranteed for life. What little relief aid reached Brazil, meanwhile, ended up profiting British merchant houses and the slave owning sugar-planter classes.

The European “locusts” did not go unchallenged. Rioting became common. Banditry increased. In China, drought-famine helped to spark the Boxer uprising. In Europe, the fin de siècle was largely an opportunity for pale-faced men to wear purple cummerbunds and spout rotten symbolist poetry; for colonized peoples it genuinely seemed to presage mass extinction. It was, says Davis, “a new dark age of colonial war, indentured labour, concentration camps, genocide, forced migration, famine and disease.”

“Class” may be passé in academic circles, yet the catalogue of cruelty Davis has unearthed is jaw-dropping. Late Victorian Holocausts is as ugly as it is compelling. But, as Conrad’s Marlow said in Heart of Darkness : “The conquest of the earth, which means the taking away from those who have a different complexion and slightly flatter noses than ourselves, is not a pretty thing when you look at it too much.”

I wonder how did these men behave on their subsequent flight to India, after they were released by the Dutch authorities? Were they being as rambunctious as before, or were they quiet as lambs? Does anybody know?

The following incident has nothing to do with thread, but it was too delicious to leave alone, so I’m bringing it to y’all’s attention:

Indian-American Boy Charged With Hate Crime An Indian American boy in New Jersey, who made his own family the target of hate crime, has been formally charged. The 17-year-old has been charged along with nine of his friends who acted as his accomplices when he terrorized his family with anti-Hindu/Indian graffiti and letters, media reports said. In May, the Wayne, Passaic County-based family had discovered graffiti spray-painted at the back of their two-story house, front steps and rear patio with threats and profanities along with references to their Hindu faith and their Asian Indian decent. The black, orange and neon green graffiti painted threats like ‘We Kill U’, ‘We will fire your house’, ‘Watch Your Kids’ and ‘I Hate Indians’ among others. Prior to that, in January, they received a series of hate mails and found threats painted on their garage doors.

It’s so rare to see second-generation desis misbehaving, that too against their own families, that I think this kid deserves a round of applause. What do y’all think? Maybe he is a Hindu terrorist in the making!

yep a sense of humour is definitely needed.

if you were a criminal would you declare yourself as such? ( well embassies seem to think so – tick this box if you are planning to come to this country to perpetrate an atrocity (!)- yeah right who’s going to tick it ever?? makes me giggle) would you be coming forth to declare if you’re a muslim if you’re a muslim terrorist? no probably not. you’d have a fake passport or something if you thought they were looking for passports with ‘i am a muslim’ written inside.

the mirth of it all..

in any case, one only has to look at the Al-Qaeda manual ( downloadable from the US Dept of Justice’s website – then again, there would probably be questions if one was ‘brown’ and seen reading such a manual..!!) which says nice and clearly – combatants must do their best to ‘fit in’ and not look overtly muslim -i.e.shave your beards’. given that piece of advice is in the manual – either the combatants aren’t reading their own manual, or they’re not very intelligent.

You can be forgiven for not having followed all the details of the Menezes case from a different country. But in fact, it later came out that he hadn’t panicked and run from police (as was first alleged).

There is this funny thing about jail; you can’t actually go out and shop tax free for cute electronic gadgets because you’re kind of locked-up. .

none of these men were put in jail, in fact treated quite well thanks to the Indian Foreign Service

Now why would the dutch papers, themselves, say that they spend two days in a cell (cells happen to be in jails??? In this case I hope you were right.

I bet they are, too. They must be at least be as good as some hotel rooms, even. So, to look on the bright side, these guys had two days extended to their vacation and stayed at public expense in a glamorous European capital…isn’t this adventure better than being back in Mumbai and back to the same old, same old grind of the garment trade?

I assume you were being sarcastic? I meant that if you had to choose between doing time in Surinam or in the Netherlands you’re better of in the Netherlands.

Perhaps I’m whining and yes I can understand that the Dutch government has a savety first policy. I can even understand that they refuse to give an apology because giving a apology would mean that they were wrong and let’s face it who wants to admit being wrong. Even more so a government admitting being wrong. I can understand that the 12 man don’t want the media fuss anymore since being portrayed ad a criminal/a potential terrorist does outshine ‘the extended vacation’.

What I can’t understand is that it takes two days to decode: “I’m not a terrorist, yaar!” I can’t understand that a proper treatment means being treated as a potential terrorist, being recognized as an terrorist for having a beard and being put in a cell just because you are a potential terrorist. What Ever happend to; innocent untill you’re proven guilty??

And perhaps (allthough I doubt it) the 12 men really did think they were treated properly. But if it was my Dad then I certainly didn’t want him to have to go through all that!