I’ve been back to Southall many times since ’98, most recently in Nov. I was just wondering if the perception that middle/upper-class, better-off desis have of it has changed. You’re right, it’s a lot more Somali now, and I did sense that as soon as someone is economically able, they try to move out of there (countered by those who have innumerable ties to friends/family there and really enjoy it and wouldn’t dream of leaving). That huge gurudwara is nice, really looms in the skyline. I’ve heard it’s mostly empty and people prefer the Singh Sabha closer to the Broadway (near the train station). It’s not only the desi angle I love about the UK… I really enjoy the country as a whole, the vibe, the feel. When I’m landing in Heathrow and look out the plane window and see London below, to me it’s a wonderful feeling. If money was no object (and in the UK, not only is money DEFINITELY an object but my particular profession also does not tend to do very well there, at least compared to the USA) and if the weather was better I’d probably consider living there, even if for only part of the year. And English women…don’t even get me started.

Although I was staying in Chelsea/South Kensington area (beautiful neighbourhood, with really gorgeous goriyan janaanian),

It’s a very wealthy area of London. I guess the closest equivalent would be Bel-Air or Beverley Hills in LA. King’s Road in Chelsea is quite famous (it was apparently the centre of action during the late 60s). And yes there are a lot of model types wandering around there

What surprised me was that desis who were from ‘nicer’ or ‘whiter’ neighbourhoods, really looked down on Southall as a poor ghetto with paindoo people…most of them avoided it and couldn’t understand my fascination with it. They didn’t even go there for the food, which in my view is some of the best desi restaurant food I’ve ever had. Have things changed?

Well, Southall’s still a pretty hardcore Sikh/Punjabi area, although in recent years there have also been a growing number of Pakistanis and (I think) Somalians there. When I was a lot younger it was regarded as a slightly rough neighbourhood; not so much during the past 10 years or so, although there are still occasional arguments on the street which turn into small disturbances, and apparently it’s not a good idea to leave an expensive car lying around (ironic when you consider the number of Beemers and Mercs Indians owned by Indians there). But there are many new restaurants on Southall Broadway, the street itself is very vibrant and there are lots of expensive desi clothes stores too, along with the usual music/video stores, convenience stores etc. Nice place to hang out during the summer. There is a huge new gurdwara there too which you may have heard of.

I don’t currently know anyone who lives there, but I did have some colleagues a few years ago (2000) who were originally from Southall. From what I was told, the area has its merits and it’s okay to visit, but it is quite insular and conservative in some ways. I guess people like to move on from there once they reach a certain financial level or generally want to broaden their horizons.

and really developed an appreciation for desi UK…..You guys have something special going on there.

As I mentioned, the Punjabi influence has played a huge part in shaping the “flavour” of UK desi culture, and on the whole I think it’s been a positive influence. Some of the older non-Punjabi Indian generation don’t like it, for obvious reasons, and of course the problems within the British Pakistani population have poisoned matters to some extent too. But life for Indians in general is cool, we’ve had to grapple with a lot of the intergenerational and intercultural issues you’re currently having to deal with in the US and I think that generally people here are moving forward positively.

I’m probably going to show my age from the perspective of any Brits currently lurking on SM, but the best bhangra nights in my experience were “Bombay Jungle” at The Wag in London, followed by the same at “Limelight” — this was early-mid 90s when the UK desi scene was really kicking off big-time. There had previously been a very famous “desi night” at a club in the capital called the Hammersmith Palais — a bit before my time — but it got shut down and banned because fights kept breaking out !

Typical…..;)

There used to be “daytime bhangra clubs” too — again before my time — which you may have heard of. They were a compromise because the parents didn’t like the idea of their betas and betis clubbing into the night. It seems quite a quaint idea now…..;)

It’s unfortanate that yourself, Gautham, and presumably other South-Indian Americans have had these negative experiences. Speaking for myself, I always had (and still have) a lot of esteem and regard for southern Indian culture. I love the sound of Carnatic music, and I find the temple architecture to be beautiful (which I mentioned on another thread a few weeks ago). Many of my relatives enjoy south Indian food and have it whenever the opportunity arises. I myself enjoy dosas if made well (one of my friend’s mom makes it awesome). When I was in Singapore in May, and had a delicious south Indian meal, as well as heard really rhythmic Tamil bhajans blaring from the shops, although I recognised that these things were very different from my culture, yet I still felt they were desi, and in a strange way they made me feel more comfortable in what was otherwise a largely Chinese environment. Diversity is the name of the game and it would be horrible if everyone conformed to some kind of Punjabi model of what it means to be Indian. I do agree, just based on my own observations, that for young, college-going South Indian ABD’s, who may have come from very white-washed, non-Indian environments in high school, etc. and are trying to find or define a desi identity as young adults, the pressure to fit in to a north Indian or Punjabi/Bollywood/Gujarati template is very powerful. As for south Indian kids holding on to classical traditions more than other groups, that’s probably true. Most Punjabis (and Gujaratis) have a village background and thus are able to transmit village culture like bhangra and garba to their offspring. Most Southies (in the US) have urban, professional backgrounds, and do not really possess south Indian village culture, but do try to transmit high-end art forms like bharatnatyman and carnatic music. But honestly what I see happening is more of a fusion…at all the south Indian weddings I’ve been to, bhangra and Bollywood music have played prominent roles, including a Keralite Christian wedding in NYC…it’s because people want to drink and party (at the reception at least) and there’s nothing better than bhangra for that. OK, I’m rambling now, let me just end by saying that I for one do appreciate the cultural contributions of south Indians.

I don’t usually comment on the boards, but I totally identify with what you’re saying here. South Indian culture isn’t really regarded as being “desi” at all, even though its contributed a lot to the overall idea of what popular “Indian culture” is.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that most south indians who immigrated were educated professionals and there was a lot more emphasis on promoting religion and classical arts like bharatanatyam and carnatic music. You can’t suddenly take a classical artform and make into a club music, like you can with bhangra. So you either rejected all of it, or you stayed within those boundaries.

But there’s an incredible amount of innovation possible within the boundaries-the problem is that you can’t learn it for seven years and start being “innovative” because its way too short of time to have any real in depth knowledge. Most kids who learn classical music or dance only study till they can have an arangretram. Plus, if you want to do fusion, you got to be knowledge about western music theory as well.

Whereas you can learn bhangra, the dhol or garba or sing bollywood vocals in a very short period of time.

One observation that I’ve noticed is that south indian kids in the US are really the only ones who have made attempts to preserve their classical arts more than any other diasporic group.

Sahej: Bikram Singh is one of the few good artists active in North America. His albums kicked ass, he can sing, he got great producers (from the UK) to do the album from him, AND he wrote a lot of the songs (apparently he grew up in India until almost his teens or something). Here’s a great video which was filmed right here in NYC:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=usYefwfMIIk

But for the record, I don’t actually know any of the SMers, outside of a few scattered e-mails with Anna over the past 2 years. And while I have hung with Bong Breaker a few times (met him via SM, actually!), I have yet to see him breakdance. We’re hoping to get him onstage this weekend at Abdul Smooth’s Indian Electronica Festival. (Red Snapper, you local?)

Balle balle balle! (and the gori hoi-hois off into the sunset)

…..especially after 9/11.

I hate to use other commenters as “case studies” (especially as I’ve inadvertantly been on the receiving end of this a couple of times myself), but the kind of anti-Western attitude and ideas repeatedly displayed by R.K.Khan on this thread and several others (eg. the “Shorba Nazis” thread) is a prime example of the problems and underlying causes which I’ve been talking about.

It’s all very familiar, and this kind of rhetoric is exactly the kind of mentality displayed by the Muslim social misfits here who are both unable and unwilling to integrate satisfactorily into British/Western society and culture, the “armchair jihadis”, and (in the worst cases) the extremist groups.