Comments on: Moral Equivalence http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jumper http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-80120 Jumper Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:18:20 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-80120 <pre><code> Dammit. I walked by a peace rally in Boston last week. There were Lebanese flags everywhere. It struck me so far as an anti-war rally in general, though a bit one sided as Israel came out looking like the single bad guy. Yes I feel Israel was a bit heavy handed, and maybe they statistically killed more children civilians in their response to Hezbollah rocket attacks (which also killed civilian kids), but I sure am not painting Hezbollah as some innocent group. This is much worse. Showing and quoting Gandhi while supporting a straight up genocidal terrorist does not make for a true peace rally. Damn ignorant fools contradict the purpose of a peace rally. This just adds more fuel to the fire blazing in the hearts of war hawks. The kind who are too bigoted for my taste. I at least know that Hezbollah does NOT want peace. They want to wipe Israel off the map because they view the Jews as worthless encroachers. The only peace they want is the sterile silence that follows after throughly fragging an area. Then again, this could be yet another case of fringe loony piggybacking off of a larger and more moderate liberal cause. It's been known to happen before. Like when Falun Gong or Scientologists fight over the scraps of conerspace during big parades in big cities to promote their causes which may not have anything to do with the local ralley. Or vegan animal rights activists joining in on a Free Mumia gathering. Hell, could even be a damn troll. </code></pre> Dammit. I walked by a peace rally in Boston last week. There were Lebanese flags everywhere. It struck me so far as an anti-war rally in general, though a bit one sided as Israel came out looking like the single bad guy. Yes I feel Israel was a bit heavy handed, and maybe they statistically killed more children civilians in their response to Hezbollah rocket attacks (which also killed civilian kids), but I sure am not painting Hezbollah as some innocent group. This is much worse. Showing and quoting Gandhi while supporting a straight up genocidal terrorist does not make for a true peace rally. Damn ignorant fools contradict the purpose of a peace rally. This just adds more fuel to the fire blazing in the hearts of war hawks. The kind who are too bigoted for my taste. I at least know that Hezbollah does NOT want peace. They want to wipe Israel off the map because they view the Jews as worthless encroachers. The only peace they want is the sterile silence that follows after throughly fragging an area. Then again, this could be yet another case of fringe loony piggybacking off of a larger and more moderate liberal cause. It's been known to happen before. Like when Falun Gong or Scientologists fight over the scraps of conerspace during big parades in big cities to promote their causes which may not have anything to do with the local ralley. Or vegan animal rights activists joining in on a Free Mumia gathering. Hell, could even be a damn troll. ]]> By: halwa puri http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79654 halwa puri Thu, 17 Aug 2006 01:37:26 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79654 <blockquote>Again, I dismiss the much of the mashed together protestor culture and not necessarily the orgs behind them or their causes. The purpose of me pointing this out is that I hope someone who attends these protests takes at least a minute to admonish some of their fellow protestors.</blockquote> <p>Abhi: I'm not sure why you've assumed that this doesn't happen. I've seen it a thousand times: during the protest, and after it, groups of people standing around talking to each other and discussing politics, strategy and tactics. Some of them already know each other, some just met at the protest, or at the organising meeting, or whatever. Does this not happen in America?</p> <p>PS: "admonishing" isn't really so good. Talking to people about their politics like grown-ups is much better.</p> Again, I dismiss the much of the mashed together protestor culture and not necessarily the orgs behind them or their causes. The purpose of me pointing this out is that I hope someone who attends these protests takes at least a minute to admonish some of their fellow protestors.

Abhi: I’m not sure why you’ve assumed that this doesn’t happen. I’ve seen it a thousand times: during the protest, and after it, groups of people standing around talking to each other and discussing politics, strategy and tactics. Some of them already know each other, some just met at the protest, or at the organising meeting, or whatever. Does this not happen in America?

PS: “admonishing” isn’t really so good. Talking to people about their politics like grown-ups is much better.

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By: RR http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79649 RR Thu, 17 Aug 2006 01:32:14 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79649 <p>Thanks for the link - great article by Sarah Baxter. As a feminist I too am disturbed by women who align themselves with these Islamic fascists. True feminists need to differentiate from these misguided fools.</p> Thanks for the link – great article by Sarah Baxter. As a feminist I too am disturbed by women who align themselves with these Islamic fascists. True feminists need to differentiate from these misguided fools.

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By: ken http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79557 ken Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:17:36 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79557 <p>Yes, protests do work to form a critical mass or at least stir up public opinion and induce an exchange of ideas. But the intermingling of issues at one protest is cause for concern, because the message/issue not only gets diluted, it confuses the issue at the same time providing those on the other side with reason to paint all protesters with the same brush and proclaiming them as being a part of idiotic fringe. Thus the impact of the protests is reduced. Its worrisome because it is not an isolated incident, its happening everywhere, the protests in London, Toronto, Paris, etc. etc.</p> <p>Here are a few excerpts from an interesting <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-525-2309812-525,00.html">article</a> by Sarah Baxter who wonders why feminist ideals have become twisted into support for groups like Hezbollah..</p> <blockquote> Women pushing their children in buggies bearing the familiar symbol of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament marched last weekend alongside banners proclaiming “We are all Hezbollah now” and Muslim extremists chanting “Oh Jew, the army of Muhammad will return.” Kira Cochrane...has noticed that today’s feminists are inclined to keep quiet about the march of radical Islam. “There’s a great fear of tackling the subject because of cultural relativism. People are scared of being called racist,” Cochrane observes. "The compassion for people of colour has been translated into feminists standing with terrorists who are terrorising their own women,”</blockquote> <p>To me the most troublesome aspect of the protests is the increasing presence of children at these protests. Why must kids be drawn into all this?</p> Yes, protests do work to form a critical mass or at least stir up public opinion and induce an exchange of ideas. But the intermingling of issues at one protest is cause for concern, because the message/issue not only gets diluted, it confuses the issue at the same time providing those on the other side with reason to paint all protesters with the same brush and proclaiming them as being a part of idiotic fringe. Thus the impact of the protests is reduced. Its worrisome because it is not an isolated incident, its happening everywhere, the protests in London, Toronto, Paris, etc. etc.

Here are a few excerpts from an interesting article by Sarah Baxter who wonders why feminist ideals have become twisted into support for groups like Hezbollah..

Women pushing their children in buggies bearing the familiar symbol of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament marched last weekend alongside banners proclaiming “We are all Hezbollah now” and Muslim extremists chanting “Oh Jew, the army of Muhammad will return.” Kira Cochrane…has noticed that todayÂ’s feminists are inclined to keep quiet about the march of radical Islam. “ThereÂ’s a great fear of tackling the subject because of cultural relativism. People are scared of being called racist,” Cochrane observes. “The compassion for people of colour has been translated into feminists standing with terrorists who are terrorising their own women,”

To me the most troublesome aspect of the protests is the increasing presence of children at these protests. Why must kids be drawn into all this?

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By: jilted_manhood http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79515 jilted_manhood Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:55:05 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79515 <p>The funny thing is that in extreme Muslim quarters particularly Pakistani, Gandhi is a euphemism for timid, grass eating Hindus who can't fight. In several eyeball to eyeball fights ( always find that phrase funny ) during the Kargil war many pakistani soldiers and irregulars would taunt Indian soldiers by calling them ' Gandhi '</p> The funny thing is that in extreme Muslim quarters particularly Pakistani, Gandhi is a euphemism for timid, grass eating Hindus who can’t fight. In several eyeball to eyeball fights ( always find that phrase funny ) during the Kargil war many pakistani soldiers and irregulars would taunt Indian soldiers by calling them ‘ Gandhi ‘

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By: SP http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79488 SP Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:58:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79488 <p>P.S. I find the juxtaposition of Gandhi and Nasrallah pretty revolting, wonder if it was intentional, or if two people holding up those pictures/puppets happened to be photographed while marching side by side.</p> P.S. I find the juxtaposition of Gandhi and Nasrallah pretty revolting, wonder if it was intentional, or if two people holding up those pictures/puppets happened to be photographed while marching side by side.

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By: SP http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79484 SP Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:55:17 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79484 <p>Lots of folks have been debating the appropriate Gandhian or non-violent response to Israeli military actions, both the recent ones in Lebanon and ongoing in Palestine. "Why can't we have a Gandhi?" is a common refrain among Arab activists I know.</p> <p>Mark Juergensmeyer (who wrote the excellent Terror in the Mind of God) had a recent short piece in Outlook asking what Gandhi would do in the current "war on terrorism"</p> <p>http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060821&fname=LJurgensmeyer+%28F%29&sid=1</p> Lots of folks have been debating the appropriate Gandhian or non-violent response to Israeli military actions, both the recent ones in Lebanon and ongoing in Palestine. “Why can’t we have a Gandhi?” is a common refrain among Arab activists I know.

Mark Juergensmeyer (who wrote the excellent Terror in the Mind of God) had a recent short piece in Outlook asking what Gandhi would do in the current “war on terrorism”

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060821&fname=LJurgensmeyer+%28F%29&sid=1

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By: sumiti http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79475 sumiti Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:23:50 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79475 <p>abhi: i see your point, but maybe consider another point of view... i am at the international aids conference right now and there are protests going on left, right and center! i agree that by getting caught up in the hype of the act of protesting, few individuals seriously understand, distinguish or appreciate the issues being protested at grass-root levels. however, i have also observed that despite the caveats involved, something seems to be working. if nothing else the movement of a group of individuals helps socities move towards a critical mass, which allows s for change at larger scales. now whether the type of movement that is accelerated is good or bad, that's a different issue.</p> <p>the protests in the area of hiv/aids, especially w regards to homosexuality and women's rights are bearing fruit. is every single indiavidual aware of the complexities and underlying facts etc etc... no. becoming more aware is always good, but does that necessarily matter? i see the purpose of protests as bulding towards critical mass and they accomplish that purpose in large. the effects of a protest are observed at a large scale... one gandhi figure may not be noticed in the grand scheme or matter to the overall cause. awareness building is different as it is more exact and detail-specific where one can carefully outline causes and distinguish between them. it can be approached in many ways, like blogging, but is also very subjective.</p> abhi: i see your point, but maybe consider another point of view… i am at the international aids conference right now and there are protests going on left, right and center! i agree that by getting caught up in the hype of the act of protesting, few individuals seriously understand, distinguish or appreciate the issues being protested at grass-root levels. however, i have also observed that despite the caveats involved, something seems to be working. if nothing else the movement of a group of individuals helps socities move towards a critical mass, which allows s for change at larger scales. now whether the type of movement that is accelerated is good or bad, that’s a different issue.

the protests in the area of hiv/aids, especially w regards to homosexuality and women’s rights are bearing fruit. is every single indiavidual aware of the complexities and underlying facts etc etc… no. becoming more aware is always good, but does that necessarily matter? i see the purpose of protests as bulding towards critical mass and they accomplish that purpose in large. the effects of a protest are observed at a large scale… one gandhi figure may not be noticed in the grand scheme or matter to the overall cause. awareness building is different as it is more exact and detail-specific where one can carefully outline causes and distinguish between them. it can be approached in many ways, like blogging, but is also very subjective.

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By: brown fury http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79464 brown fury Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:03:53 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79464 <blockquote>I'm doing it right now. And last night :)</blockquote> <p>Uhh- are we still talking about the same thing?</p> <p>Jokes aside- while I agree that media is key, and clearly, blogging has become a great tool to debate and spread information- the blogging world should be careful to see their role in context. It's just one tool or just one piece of a larger framework for fighting injustice (if that's the purpose of your blog of course, as opposed to say, for example, <a href="http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/">discussing how f*cking awesome the DETROIT TIGERS are!!!</a>). The goal of that framework being the building of people power. Which only really can be achieved through movement building- mobilizing for mass protest is an essential component of that.</p> <p>Basically, I'm just saying that dismissing protest culture, and saying that you're gonna blog instead is not an effective substitute. You can do all the blogging you want, but without mobilization, it's very difficult for normal people to impact an issue.</p> <p>Also, don't read this as a diss on bloggers- I totally think that bloggers are generally doing an important and essential thing.</p> <p>I like my in 'n out burgers animal style.</p> I’m doing it right now. And last night :)

Uhh- are we still talking about the same thing?

Jokes aside- while I agree that media is key, and clearly, blogging has become a great tool to debate and spread information- the blogging world should be careful to see their role in context. It’s just one tool or just one piece of a larger framework for fighting injustice (if that’s the purpose of your blog of course, as opposed to say, for example, discussing how f*cking awesome the DETROIT TIGERS are!!!). The goal of that framework being the building of people power. Which only really can be achieved through movement building- mobilizing for mass protest is an essential component of that.

Basically, I’m just saying that dismissing protest culture, and saying that you’re gonna blog instead is not an effective substitute. You can do all the blogging you want, but without mobilization, it’s very difficult for normal people to impact an issue.

Also, don’t read this as a diss on bloggers- I totally think that bloggers are generally doing an important and essential thing.

I like my in ‘n out burgers animal style.

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By: Abhi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/08/15/moral_equivalen/comment-page-2/#comment-79454 Abhi Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:42:20 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3687#comment-79454 <blockquote>So if you dismiss "mashed together protestor culture" then what alternative vehicle for voicing opposition and movement building do you think is effective?</blockquote> <p>I'm doing it right now. <a href="http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003690.html">And last night</a> :) See you soon brown fury. An In-and-Out Burger will take that fury right out of you.</p> So if you dismiss “mashed together protestor culture” then what alternative vehicle for voicing opposition and movement building do you think is effective?

I’m doing it right now. And last night :) See you soon brown fury. An In-and-Out Burger will take that fury right out of you.

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