Comments on: Jingoism in the blogosphere http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Hukku http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72272 Hukku Wed, 12 Jul 2006 01:11:20 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72272 <p>Kumar,</p> <p>I was being sarcastic. I was born and raised in Srinagar and have suffered enough at the hands of Kashmiri Muslims, to know that Abir's invite is hogwash.</p> Kumar,

I was being sarcastic. I was born and raised in Srinagar and have suffered enough at the hands of Kashmiri Muslims, to know that Abir’s invite is hogwash.

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By: Kumar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72255 Kumar Wed, 12 Jul 2006 00:24:46 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72255 <p><b>Abir:</b></p> <blockquote>...it is harder for Muslims than Hindus to find a place elsewhere in India and America. You only have to talk to one Kashmiri Muslim who has tried to rent a house in Delhi or applied for an American visa.</blockquote> <p>No doubt, given the reach (both international as well as elswhere in India) of some jihadi groups, Kashmiri Muslims have a harder time of it than others (in India and elsewhere). Nonetheless, you do know (I hope) that substantial nos. are here as well as in New Delhi.</p> <blockquote>...I would urge you to pause reflecting on your painful experience---if we who live in the valley did only that we wouldn't be able to survive, you can have that luxury of reflection in America...</blockquote> <p>Unlike all too many secessionists, I do not wallow in the past and invent imaginary grievances. There is no profit in such behavior. No, my understanding of Kashmir is informed by my experiences as well as those of my family--in the past and currently--but not dominated by them.</p> <p>I urge you to reflect more acutely on the past and current behavior of secessionists. Perhaps then you'll realize that their behavior has resulted in the hellish state Kasheer is in today.</p> <blockquote>...I can follow you and start painting Kashmiri Pandits in the same negative colours you see Kashmiri Muslims...</blockquote> <p>Why doesn't that surprise me? Your penchant for exaggeration is at play here also, btw: Notice that I have always been careful to limit my criticism to the conspiracy-mongers in the secessionist faction among Kashmiri Muslims. They most certainly do not amount to the entire Kashmiri Muslim community.</p> <blockquote>...but I can't and won't do that...</blockquote> <p>Gee, thanks. You're a true saint, Abir.</p> <blockquote>...stop characterizing large sections of the Kashmiri population as conspiracy-theorists and see them in their humanity...</blockquote> <p>I base my views on how things are, rather than how I wish they would be. And, regrettably, Abir in their 'humanity', humans can sometimes be all too foolish (like the secessionists).</p> <p>I truly and fervently hope that the secessionist faction among Kashmiri Muslims can find their way out of the fevered swamps of their imagination. They must take responsibility for their part in creating the mess J&K State is in now. Then, and only then, is there a possiblity for creating a better Kashmir for all of us.</p> <p><b>Hukku:</b></p> <blockquote>...If you and Kumar don't mind....</blockquote> <p>Dude, I wasn't aware that your travel plans were among my responsibilites. In any case, you can travel to the Valley on your own for a few days (just as my relatives have done on occasion), but I wouldn't advise you settle down permanently in the Valley. At least not just yet.</p> <p>Kumar</p> Abir:

…it is harder for Muslims than Hindus to find a place elsewhere in India and America. You only have to talk to one Kashmiri Muslim who has tried to rent a house in Delhi or applied for an American visa.

No doubt, given the reach (both international as well as elswhere in India) of some jihadi groups, Kashmiri Muslims have a harder time of it than others (in India and elsewhere). Nonetheless, you do know (I hope) that substantial nos. are here as well as in New Delhi.

…I would urge you to pause reflecting on your painful experience—if we who live in the valley did only that we wouldn’t be able to survive, you can have that luxury of reflection in America…

Unlike all too many secessionists, I do not wallow in the past and invent imaginary grievances. There is no profit in such behavior. No, my understanding of Kashmir is informed by my experiences as well as those of my family–in the past and currently–but not dominated by them.

I urge you to reflect more acutely on the past and current behavior of secessionists. Perhaps then you’ll realize that their behavior has resulted in the hellish state Kasheer is in today.

…I can follow you and start painting Kashmiri Pandits in the same negative colours you see Kashmiri Muslims…

Why doesn’t that surprise me? Your penchant for exaggeration is at play here also, btw: Notice that I have always been careful to limit my criticism to the conspiracy-mongers in the secessionist faction among Kashmiri Muslims. They most certainly do not amount to the entire Kashmiri Muslim community.

…but I can’t and won’t do that…

Gee, thanks. You’re a true saint, Abir.

…stop characterizing large sections of the Kashmiri population as conspiracy-theorists and see them in their humanity…

I base my views on how things are, rather than how I wish they would be. And, regrettably, Abir in their ‘humanity’, humans can sometimes be all too foolish (like the secessionists).

I truly and fervently hope that the secessionist faction among Kashmiri Muslims can find their way out of the fevered swamps of their imagination. They must take responsibility for their part in creating the mess J&K State is in now. Then, and only then, is there a possiblity for creating a better Kashmir for all of us.

Hukku:

…If you and Kumar don’t mind….

Dude, I wasn’t aware that your travel plans were among my responsibilites. In any case, you can travel to the Valley on your own for a few days (just as my relatives have done on occasion), but I wouldn’t advise you settle down permanently in the Valley. At least not just yet.

Kumar

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By: Sin http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72208 Sin Tue, 11 Jul 2006 21:59:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72208 <p>If anything, I'm a little amused about how this has devolved into a verification/substantiation issue. It's really not that complicated. SM tends to pick up news items and discuss them without (most of the time) taking a side per se, other than to point out if something is silly or interesting, or entertaining. In all fairness, my Mutineer babies take shots at people equally, or at least in roughly the same proportions as those people have representation. Focus on the simple matter at hand in this post, without engaging in tautological critiques that wind up turning into incessant bouts of the conversations I have with my baby nephew when he doesn't want to go to sleep: "Go to bed kiddo", "No, YOU go to bed!".</p> <p>I really hope someone misreads everything I've put in here. :) Because quite frankly, I'm still trying to see how we got from a post that was essentially about jingoism into a convoluted discussion about "Islamo-fascists" and other such entertaining-yet-curiously-incapable-of-scanning terms.</p> If anything, I’m a little amused about how this has devolved into a verification/substantiation issue. It’s really not that complicated. SM tends to pick up news items and discuss them without (most of the time) taking a side per se, other than to point out if something is silly or interesting, or entertaining. In all fairness, my Mutineer babies take shots at people equally, or at least in roughly the same proportions as those people have representation. Focus on the simple matter at hand in this post, without engaging in tautological critiques that wind up turning into incessant bouts of the conversations I have with my baby nephew when he doesn’t want to go to sleep: “Go to bed kiddo”, “No, YOU go to bed!”.

I really hope someone misreads everything I’ve put in here. :) Because quite frankly, I’m still trying to see how we got from a post that was essentially about jingoism into a convoluted discussion about “Islamo-fascists” and other such entertaining-yet-curiously-incapable-of-scanning terms.

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By: Hukku http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72193 Hukku Tue, 11 Jul 2006 21:36:19 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72193 <p>Abir,</p> <p>Seems you have overlloked my post, # 63.</p> <p>OTOH, If you and Kumar don't mind, I would love to take you up on your offer of a guided tour of my erstwhile home. Needless to say, If the trip comes to fruition would be a seminal event of my life.</p> <p>If agreeable, do suggest a way to communicate.</p> Abir,

Seems you have overlloked my post, # 63.

OTOH, If you and Kumar don’t mind, I would love to take you up on your offer of a guided tour of my erstwhile home. Needless to say, If the trip comes to fruition would be a seminal event of my life.

If agreeable, do suggest a way to communicate.

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By: GujuDude http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72069 GujuDude Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:16:30 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72069 <blockquote>but you say bad stuff about our boys in the Indian Army, I will do bad stuff to you, if I can. Right or wrong - they are my brothers. They fight for me.</blockquote> <p>I'm admit I'm defensive about military personnel, American that is. However, if evidence of wrong doing is presented and called out, or any allegations are discussed, I will make arguments based on a logical empirical foundation. Above all, I won't dishonor those troops by threatening '<i>I will do bad stuff to you</i>", they fight to ensure a civil society is protected and laws obeyed. You also do understand that military personnel that breach discipline are looked down upon far more harshly by their own uniformed comrades than the public? Right?</p> <p>Keyboard commandos like yourself is exactly to whom this post applies.</p> but you say bad stuff about our boys in the Indian Army, I will do bad stuff to you, if I can. Right or wrong – they are my brothers. They fight for me.

I’m admit I’m defensive about military personnel, American that is. However, if evidence of wrong doing is presented and called out, or any allegations are discussed, I will make arguments based on a logical empirical foundation. Above all, I won’t dishonor those troops by threatening ‘I will do bad stuff to you“, they fight to ensure a civil society is protected and laws obeyed. You also do understand that military personnel that breach discipline are looked down upon far more harshly by their own uniformed comrades than the public? Right?

Keyboard commandos like yourself is exactly to whom this post applies.

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By: browniefromtx http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72057 browniefromtx Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:49:09 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72057 <p>Wow, Raj. Given your posts here and on Gujarat I can now truly understand why there are so many problems in India.</p> Wow, Raj. Given your posts here and on Gujarat I can now truly understand why there are so many problems in India.

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By: Abir http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72034 Abir Tue, 11 Jul 2006 17:11:57 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72034 <p>Kumar: I am sorry if I offended you. I only meant that it is harder for Muslims than Hindus to find a place elsewhere in India and America. You only have to talk to one Kashmiri Muslim who has tried to rent a house in Delhi or applied for an American visa. I would urge you to pause reflecting on your painful experience---if we who live in the valley did only that we wouldn't be able to survive, you can have that luxury of reflection in America---and consider travelling to Kashmir. You will discover among other things that many Pandits still live there. Please don't be fearful. You will have the protection of 700,000 Indian soldiers even if the 3500 jihadis are a threat--this is not an option for Kashmiri Muslims who suffer from the atrocities of both sections. I can follow you and start painting Kashmiri Pandits in the same negative colours you see Kashmiri Muslims but I can't and won't do that. Ksshmiri Pandits are dear to my heart. They are part of our identity and as I have said before their exodus is the greatest tragedy for us. I think if you came to Kashmir you will stop characterizing large sections of the Kashmiri population as conspiracy-theorists and see them in their humanity. But only if you are prepared or wish to see that.</p> Kumar: I am sorry if I offended you. I only meant that it is harder for Muslims than Hindus to find a place elsewhere in India and America. You only have to talk to one Kashmiri Muslim who has tried to rent a house in Delhi or applied for an American visa. I would urge you to pause reflecting on your painful experience—if we who live in the valley did only that we wouldn’t be able to survive, you can have that luxury of reflection in America—and consider travelling to Kashmir. You will discover among other things that many Pandits still live there. Please don’t be fearful. You will have the protection of 700,000 Indian soldiers even if the 3500 jihadis are a threat–this is not an option for Kashmiri Muslims who suffer from the atrocities of both sections. I can follow you and start painting Kashmiri Pandits in the same negative colours you see Kashmiri Muslims but I can’t and won’t do that. Ksshmiri Pandits are dear to my heart. They are part of our identity and as I have said before their exodus is the greatest tragedy for us. I think if you came to Kashmir you will stop characterizing large sections of the Kashmiri population as conspiracy-theorists and see them in their humanity. But only if you are prepared or wish to see that.

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By: Kumar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72028 Kumar Tue, 11 Jul 2006 16:59:37 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72028 <p><b>Abir</b></p> <blockquote>I hope you will spare a thought for those of us Muslims who can't leave the valley and move to India or America as easily as you and your family did....your knowledge of Kashmir is second-hand, abstract, and urgently needs a sense of reality. </blockquote> <p>Easily? How do you know what my family went through, sir? Were you there? Or do you possess some sort of extra-sensory perception that allows you to know the experiences of people posting on the web? My knowledge is unfortunately painfully concrete, and first-hand, due to the actions jihadis.</p> <p>It's amusing that you think my knowledge of J&K is second-hand, while presuming to judge what my family went through: Somewhat inconsistent, don't you think? Your comments here show a disturbing tendency to jump to conclusions based on the slightest or no evidence (from assuming what we went through to assuming that I was someone who wrote a letter to the NYRB).</p> <blockquote>...Thousands of non-Muslims live and work there after all....</blockquote> <p>Yes, they do. But they don't include the vast majority of the Pandit community, do they? Recall that whenever any substantial nos. of Pandits try to move back to the Valley, the jihadis and their supporters issue (and sometimes carry out) threats of murder. Btw, without the presence of the security forces (whom you think only go about committing rights violations), the lives of non-Muslims who are in the Valley would be much less secure.</p> <blockquote>...Even if there are 3500 Jihadis, which hardly any one believes....</blockquote> <p>Sir, you desperately need a reality-check. I suggest you ought to try more reading and reflection, and try to escape the fevered swamps of bizzare logic, conspiracy-mongering, and selective amnesia of inconvenient truths that characterizes much of the secessiont faction of Kashmiri Muslims. Perhaps then J&K won't be such a "..terrible reality..."</p> <p>I prefer to stick reading as well as reflecting on my own first-hand experiences in J&K, as well as those of my family who currently live in Jammu. They tell me that the hold of the jihadis on the imagingation of the secessionist faction of Kashmiri Muslims has not lessened, even after all these terrible years: My experience and reading only confirms that.</p> <p>Kumar</p> Abir

I hope you will spare a thought for those of us Muslims who can’t leave the valley and move to India or America as easily as you and your family did….your knowledge of Kashmir is second-hand, abstract, and urgently needs a sense of reality.

Easily? How do you know what my family went through, sir? Were you there? Or do you possess some sort of extra-sensory perception that allows you to know the experiences of people posting on the web? My knowledge is unfortunately painfully concrete, and first-hand, due to the actions jihadis.

It’s amusing that you think my knowledge of J&K is second-hand, while presuming to judge what my family went through: Somewhat inconsistent, don’t you think? Your comments here show a disturbing tendency to jump to conclusions based on the slightest or no evidence (from assuming what we went through to assuming that I was someone who wrote a letter to the NYRB).

…Thousands of non-Muslims live and work there after all….

Yes, they do. But they don’t include the vast majority of the Pandit community, do they? Recall that whenever any substantial nos. of Pandits try to move back to the Valley, the jihadis and their supporters issue (and sometimes carry out) threats of murder. Btw, without the presence of the security forces (whom you think only go about committing rights violations), the lives of non-Muslims who are in the Valley would be much less secure.

…Even if there are 3500 Jihadis, which hardly any one believes….

Sir, you desperately need a reality-check. I suggest you ought to try more reading and reflection, and try to escape the fevered swamps of bizzare logic, conspiracy-mongering, and selective amnesia of inconvenient truths that characterizes much of the secessiont faction of Kashmiri Muslims. Perhaps then J&K won’t be such a “..terrible reality…”

I prefer to stick reading as well as reflecting on my own first-hand experiences in J&K, as well as those of my family who currently live in Jammu. They tell me that the hold of the jihadis on the imagingation of the secessionist faction of Kashmiri Muslims has not lessened, even after all these terrible years: My experience and reading only confirms that.

Kumar

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By: Raj http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72002 Raj Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:17:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72002 <p>Abir - my dear Kashmiri muslim - how are you my friend ? Were you too young during the wonderful days of 1989, when Kashmiri muslims had either declared independence, or declared their state to be a part of Pakistan , in the name of Allah the Merciful ? Remember those days Abir? Remember how you people mocked the Kashmiri Pandits - "leave Kashmir but leave your wives and daughters behind" ? "Either convert to Islam and fight for freedom of Kashmir, or watch your wives and daughters getting raped by our brave mujaheedin" ? Remember how everyone of you had been given AK-47s and each was now a Holy Muhajeed capable of taking on 100 kufr Indian soldiers single-handedly ? AZAADI AZAADI AZADI...HINDUSTAN KASHMIR CHODO !!</p> <p>Sigh ..those were the glory days. What chance did the idol worshipping kufr have against Allah's warriors ? None..nah ?</p> <p>Imagine that. Now the same Allah's Warriors sit in their room, with their doors locked and p1ss in their pants at the sight of the bloody Indian kufr soldiers. But it is a good thing you got internet though...you can now tell people how much you hate them bloody Indian soldiers.</p> <p>I agree with you. India's State Terrorism in Kashmir is totally reprehensible and condemnable.</p> <p>So do something about it Abir. Pick up a gun or a knife or whatever is available. Fight the bloody Indians. Attack the nearest military camp. Take them down. Come on, Abir...Be a man. For once..</p> Abir – my dear Kashmiri muslim – how are you my friend ? Were you too young during the wonderful days of 1989, when Kashmiri muslims had either declared independence, or declared their state to be a part of Pakistan , in the name of Allah the Merciful ? Remember those days Abir? Remember how you people mocked the Kashmiri Pandits – “leave Kashmir but leave your wives and daughters behind” ? “Either convert to Islam and fight for freedom of Kashmir, or watch your wives and daughters getting raped by our brave mujaheedin” ? Remember how everyone of you had been given AK-47s and each was now a Holy Muhajeed capable of taking on 100 kufr Indian soldiers single-handedly ? AZAADI AZAADI AZADI…HINDUSTAN KASHMIR CHODO !!

Sigh ..those were the glory days. What chance did the idol worshipping kufr have against Allah’s warriors ? None..nah ?

Imagine that. Now the same Allah’s Warriors sit in their room, with their doors locked and p1ss in their pants at the sight of the bloody Indian kufr soldiers. But it is a good thing you got internet though…you can now tell people how much you hate them bloody Indian soldiers.

I agree with you. India’s State Terrorism in Kashmir is totally reprehensible and condemnable.

So do something about it Abir. Pick up a gun or a knife or whatever is available. Fight the bloody Indians. Attack the nearest military camp. Take them down. Come on, Abir…Be a man. For once..

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By: hairy_d http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/07/08/jingoism_in_the/comment-page-4/#comment-72001 hairy_d Tue, 11 Jul 2006 14:12:56 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3557#comment-72001 <blockquote>I have a request to make: please visit Kashmir. </blockquote> <p>hey buddy - are there any wilderness reserves in kashmir where one can go solo? - would you recommedn going solo? i am not the coolie and guide type of guy, but i heard of these trekkers who got abducted and held for ransom. will appreciate tips from you. thank you.</p> I have a request to make: please visit Kashmir.

hey buddy – are there any wilderness reserves in kashmir where one can go solo? – would you recommedn going solo? i am not the coolie and guide type of guy, but i heard of these trekkers who got abducted and held for ransom. will appreciate tips from you. thank you.

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