I understand what you’re saying, but I am getting really sick of the whole ‘real-Indian’ vs. ‘patronising and over-sensitive Indians who live in the West’ division

Sorry. Didn’t mean to create that divide.

I don’t think that dismissing ‘ethnic’ as harmless is such a good thing to do. Language shapes the way people see each other, and for me when I see signs like that in India I can see that discrimination goes both ways, and the worst thing ever is to have it internalised and then perpetuated. Calling aspects of your own culture ‘ethnic’ in your own country makes those of us who are trying to have a little pride cringe. No it’s not the end of the world but it sure as hell is right up there with cheesy matrimonial ads, tackily over-decorated Indian restaurants and having people telling you how good your English is for that all-out cringe factor.

Tashe, you are not listening. You are still trying to make me see that the usage of the word ‘ethnic’ is somehow deeply entwined with emberassing inferiority complex. You refuse to acknowldege that we truly, literally, use the word with a different meaning. Let me give you another example. I went to college in Hyderabad, and we used the word “freak out” to mean “going out, having fun, partying”. That might strike you as odd usage. Another example: I use the word ‘smart’ to denote someone who looks good, perhaps dressed well, but my sister tells me that you use the word in the states to mean ‘intelligent’. ‘Ethnic’ is in the same class. Literally.

Amitabh:

But, in the first place I think its rather sad that so many people in India speak English as their FIRST LANGUAGE now. There is something so inherently wrong with that that anyone living in any other part of the world (other than India) would immediately see it. That doesn’t strike you as odd (or presumably strike Sameer as odd but he can correct me if I’m wrong).

No, it does not strike me as odd. But, I dont understand why it is ‘inherently’ wrong? Do you feel sad that the population of speakers of ‘indian’ languages will dwindle and they will become extinct? Sorry to bust the bubble, but thats what languages do – they fuse, they flourish, and they die. Most of the colonized countries have adopted the languages of the colonizers. Entire continents (South America – Spanish/Portuguese/French/English), (Africa – French, Portuguese, Dutch, English) have adopted the foreign languages that have become the ‘adopted first languages’. Why is it odd then that we are more comfortable in English than any of the regional languages in India?

Yet if we challenge your usage of a word in your precious adopted FIRST LANGUAGE you find that strange and somewhat offensive.

Well, you were sarcastic about ‘imposing your language on me’. I made a snide remark. Seems fair to me.

But, it is no way a representation of how indians would feel about their incorrect usage corrected. If it’s valid, I am sure they will accept the correction. But if it’s an imposition like ‘ethnic’ or ‘freak out’, I am afraid you must admit that there exists another dialect of the English langauage. It’s called Indian English. There is a distinction betweenn correction, as in pointing out incorrect usage when both of us agree on the same correct usage, and imposition, where you are pointing out incorrect usage when infact we don’t agree on the same correct usage to begin with.

Here’s some interesting info from Wiki, that could explain why some people use/like the use the word ‘vernac’ pejoratively (thereby buying into the high/low hierarchy of languages)(this supports your point more than it does mine, but it was so interesting I had to share ):

“The vernacular is also often contrasted with a liturgical language (in Linguistics, the relationship between these “High” and “Low” languages…)…in Hindu culture, traditionally religious or scholarly works were written in Sanskrit long after its use as a spoken language. With the rise of the bhakti movement from the 1100s onwards, religious works started being created in Tamil, Hindi, Kannada, Telugu and many other Indian languages throughout the different regions of India. For example, the Ramayana, one of Hinduism’s sacred epics in Sanskrit had vernacular versions such as Ramacharitamanasa, a Hindi version of the Ramayana by the 16th century poet Tulsidas and Kambaramayanam by the poet, Kamban in Tamil.”

Hail Wiki Mogambo!

I know you said it would be your last post, but I thought I’d respond anyway . I think it really depends on who is speaking and their particular way of looking at things. I can believe that many wanna-be ‘hip’ kids will use the word pejoratively, as well might SOME of those married to more English/western ways. However, many people use the word simply as a description (as a shortcut for “Indian languages”) as in “more books need to be translated into vernacular languages” or with pride — perhaps especially in South India.

RC: Well, clearly our personal experiences/circles have been very different. I’ve only heard the word used to describe someone, e.g. whose knowledge of vernac languages is strong, who prefers to speak in the vernac etc. So you might think again about the ‘get real’ bit.

I know from personal experience that the word ‘vernac’ isnt used “comfortable” … its more like with “disgust”. Get real !!!

MG and “Ethnic,” you are right on the ball. The words are used in very different ways in India and in the US: in fact, it took me quite a while to get used to the ‘wierd’ way in which the way ‘ethnic’ gets used in the US + its connotations. Since so many people in (urban) India now wear ‘western’ clothing, the word ethnic becomes a convenient catch-all that immediately describes ‘traditional Indian clothing (encompassing different regions and cultures)’ and has positive connotations. Given that the majority of eateries serve Indian food, they are usually more specific as to the type of food i.e. words connoting South Indian etc food instead of zimbly ‘ethnic.’

I suspect it is only people brought up in the US who are used to seeing words like ‘ethnic’ and ‘vernacular’ used in western-specific ways who get upset by such usage as they assume the same connotations for those words when used in India. I moved in ultra-liberal politically-active-in-fact-downright-activist theory-and-cultural-studies-oriented academic circles in Delhi University, and the words ethnic, ‘vernac’ etc are used comfortably and with none of the questioning that so many other (loaded) cultural words are subjected to.