Yeah, sure, no problem. ‘m sure you didn’t need to know all of that.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood, thought you were making an assertion. Yes, it’s very interesting in Italy because it is a very mixed population and one cannot tell where the other is from simply based on physical appearances, ie dark skin, light skin. It’s insightful that you point out that it is similar to India. Actually, come to think of it, there is also the similarity with the name game, ie the last name says it all. So last names in Italy can indicate which part of Italy one is from.

Another thing is that in Italy, there is “campagnellismo” = regionalism. To this day Italians continue to strongly identify themselves with their regions. The most racist regions that engage in explicit racism, such as calling black Roma soccer players “monkeys”,etc, are Lazio and the Padania. Not to say that racism doesn’t exist in other places (it does in Bologna, where I lived).

Re: Albanians, no, they are not darker than other Italians; indeed, the second generation, which is for all purposes Italian (ie speak Italian w/o an accent), blend in quite easily and it is impossible to identify who is Albanian unless the person volunteers such information. In addition, historically the Albanian culture and language had a huge impact on certain parts of Italy; in Puglia, for example, one of the reigional dialects is actually an archaic version of Albanian. The racism directed towards them in the North is a result of the religious difference and the fact that they are of lower socio-economic status.

Lastly, there are people from Sicily who to me look completely North African. But to Italians, both North and South, they are considered Sicilians and there is no racism against how they look. The situation seems a bit confusing when Northerners refer to Southerners as “Marocchini” which means “Moroccans”; but this term of abuse is levelled at ALL Southerners who, as I pointed out, can be Scandinavian looking.

actually CAD I was more asking than making a statement. thanks for the insight. it seems it’s like india in some ways, with dark-skinned people also being found throughout the north and fairer-skinned people also being found throughout the south as well. but you’re right, even when you open your mouth in india, you pinpoint where you come from and, regardless of skin color, can be discriminated against because of it.

pardon me. i need some more coffee. the comment above should indicate that i read CAD’s comment #32 and agree with him/her.

Hey, are you trying to be mean?! You don’t have to agree with what I am saying.

Whose God:

Oh shit, totally forget about the Roma players, and Deniz something-or-other (the former Miss Italy). My bad. You are right. I think I was talking about my own personal experiences and those of the immigrants I knew (I lived in Italy for years). About the southern Italians, no, I have to disagree with you here. It is not based on race, since there are northern Italians who can be as dark as the Southern Italians, and there are southern Italians who are blond and blue-eyed. Even those who are blond, fair skinned, and blue eyed, still get discriminated against as soon as they open their mouths because one call tell from the dialect and/or accent where an Italian hails from.

the football (crowd) racism against black players in italy and other parts of europe is more color-based than culture based, since a lot of these black players come from former colonies that have strong cultural ties with their former european rulers (same language, same religion). shouting at players and calling them monkey, making ape sounds are reactions more to their color not their culture. the roma are generally seen as darker skinned, and although other aspects play a part in discrimination against them, their color is a major factor. i remember a travel piece by an american, a darker-skinned caucasian, who was mistaken for a roma in Rome and verbally abused by an elderly italian woman. a few years ago italy, a half italian-half dominican republic woman was chosen miss italy. looks-wise, she took after her mother, with darker skin. even though she was beautiful and even though she came from a middle or upper-middle class background, and culturally was very Italian, there were those who said she couldn’t represent italian beauty — because of her color.

in russia, the darker-skinned caucasians – even though they are russian – are frequently stabbed and attacked and discriminated against. i wonder if the italian attitude towards albanians – a double whammy because they tend to be muslim and darker-skinned than northern europeans — is based on the same. also, is there a difference in attitudes towards color between northern italians and southern italians?

peace

This is what I stated in #32. Did you read it? No one else except for “someone else” commented on it. This makes me sad.

don’t be sad. i read it, and i’m feeling you.

Someone else:

Oh, you’re quite right. I am oversimplifying, but that is because my post was already long enough, and I know that Mutineers have short attention spans:) But look at this:

I’d like to see how many Desi taxi drivers and their kids have easily attained the position that Yuppie Desis have; it certainly happens– there are always exceptions–but it is very difficult.

This is what I stated in #32. Did you read it? No one else except for “someone else” commented on it. This makes me sad.

I like how you put a name to the distinctions between “structural class” and “situational class”. It existed conceptually in my mind, but I didn’t know how to name and define the two. Where did you get that from?

But in general, let us continue to agree to agree Ditto