Comments on: Noonan & Freedom at Midnight http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Wholesale hats http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-277818 Wholesale hats Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:50:21 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-277818 <p>Good blog. thanks for sharing!!!!!!welcom to http://www.i-capshop.com</p> <p><a href="http://www.i-capshop.com"target="_blank">wholesale new era hats</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.i-capshop.com"target="_blank">Wholesale baseball hats</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.i-capshop.com"target="_blank">Wholesale New Era Caps</a></p> <p><a href="http://www.i-capshop.com"target="_blank">Wholesale hats</a></p> Good blog. thanks for sharing!!!!!!welcom to http://www.i-capshop.com

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By: Ponniyin Selvan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-52191 Ponniyin Selvan Tue, 28 Mar 2006 04:46:22 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-52191 <p>Partition is the best thing to happen (atleast for India) Think about going through every line in the constitution to see if it is Sharia compliant.. :-))</p> Partition is the best thing to happen (atleast for India) Think about going through every line in the constitution to see if it is Sharia compliant.. :-) )

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By: Ikram http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-52079 Ikram Mon, 27 Mar 2006 18:55:46 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-52079 <p>Ah .. the favorite game of increasingly ancient uncles -- debating partition yet again.</p> <p>I'll just add that Ayasha Jalal' ideas in Sole Spokespan were pretty much accord with my family's stories of politics before and after partition (my grandparents fled North India for Karachi). They pin the blame on Nehru for refusing compromises to a centralized state that would have allowed a United India. When I started reading Indian versions of history that painted Jinnah as a bad guy, I was pretty shocked -- doesn't everyone know that Jinnah was a secular Muslim leader and the Nehru caused partition?</p> <p>I've read a bit more now, enough to refrain from commenting on the causes of partition here. I will add that I used to think partition was a mistake and a disaster, but reading SepiaMutiny (among other things) and encountering more Hindu Indians has made me think that partition may, on net, be OK. No offense intended.</p> Ah .. the favorite game of increasingly ancient uncles — debating partition yet again.

I’ll just add that Ayasha Jalal’ ideas in Sole Spokespan were pretty much accord with my family’s stories of politics before and after partition (my grandparents fled North India for Karachi). They pin the blame on Nehru for refusing compromises to a centralized state that would have allowed a United India. When I started reading Indian versions of history that painted Jinnah as a bad guy, I was pretty shocked — doesn’t everyone know that Jinnah was a secular Muslim leader and the Nehru caused partition?

I’ve read a bit more now, enough to refrain from commenting on the causes of partition here. I will add that I used to think partition was a mistake and a disaster, but reading SepiaMutiny (among other things) and encountering more Hindu Indians has made me think that partition may, on net, be OK. No offense intended.

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By: Amitabh http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-51875 Amitabh Sun, 26 Mar 2006 19:18:46 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-51875 <p>I agree with Sahej. These assholes (Jinnah, et. al) played games and as a result millions of people got uprooted from their ancient homelands where their ancestors had lived for countless generations, never to be able to return again. If you are a Punjabi Hindu or Sikh with roots in Lahore or Rawalpindi, isn't it a horrible injustice that your home has been stolen from you? One of the most ironic memories I have is when I was in college in a small-group session, somehow the topic of Pakistan came up, and this Urdu-speaking Pakistani guy, with roots originally in Bihar, started proudly talking about Karachi...meanwhile a Hindu Sindhi guy, whose grandparents had to flee from Karachi in 1947, could only sit there and listen as someone else described his ancestral city which he no longer had any claim on. That's the legacy of Jinnah.</p> I agree with Sahej. These assholes (Jinnah, et. al) played games and as a result millions of people got uprooted from their ancient homelands where their ancestors had lived for countless generations, never to be able to return again. If you are a Punjabi Hindu or Sikh with roots in Lahore or Rawalpindi, isn’t it a horrible injustice that your home has been stolen from you? One of the most ironic memories I have is when I was in college in a small-group session, somehow the topic of Pakistan came up, and this Urdu-speaking Pakistani guy, with roots originally in Bihar, started proudly talking about Karachi…meanwhile a Hindu Sindhi guy, whose grandparents had to flee from Karachi in 1947, could only sit there and listen as someone else described his ancestral city which he no longer had any claim on. That’s the legacy of Jinnah.

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By: badmash http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-51837 badmash Sat, 25 Mar 2006 23:24:36 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-51837 <p>Arun - a little more context to the quotation would be appreciated. Thanks!</p> Arun – a little more context to the quotation would be appreciated. Thanks!

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By: Arun http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-51835 Arun Sat, 25 Mar 2006 22:21:50 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-51835 <p>This thread is about whether or not the massacres of Partition were anticipated or not. But two sentences are both necessary and sufficient to put Jinnah in the proper context.</p> <blockquote> Ismay expressed his own belief that "the dominating feature in Mr. Jinnah's mental structure was his loathing and contempt of the Hindus. <b>He apparently thought that all Hindus were sub-human creatures with whom it was impossible for Muslims to live.</b>" </blockquote> <p>Nothing more need be said.</p> This thread is about whether or not the massacres of Partition were anticipated or not. But two sentences are both necessary and sufficient to put Jinnah in the proper context.

Ismay expressed his own belief that “the dominating feature in Mr. Jinnah’s mental structure was his loathing and contempt of the Hindus. He apparently thought that all Hindus were sub-human creatures with whom it was impossible for Muslims to live.

Nothing more need be said.

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By: Arun http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-51833 Arun Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:43:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-51833 <p>Another quote from Wolpert's book, the time is March 1947</p> <blockquote>Tens of thousands of refugees began pouring into Rawalpindi from ravaged villages in the country side. "Attacks on non-Muslims have been organized with extreme savagery," Jenkins {British governor of Punjab} wired {the Viceroy} on March 17. "Deputy Commissioner Rawalpindi believes that in his district alone there may be 5,000 casualties." As information flowed in from outlying regions of the Punjab a pattern of "organisation and conspiracy" seemed to emerge, wrote the governor, "in parts of Rawalpindi outbreaks..have occurred almost simultaneously...carefully planned and carried out. All Muslims in the affected districts seems to be involved in or sympathetic to the movement. The Commander 7th Division told me when I saw him yesterday that attacks on non-Muslims had been led in some cases by retired Army officers - some of them pensioners...The Muslim section of the local notables, to whom I spoke...were extremely sulky...non-Muslims are vehemently bitter against the civil services and particularly against the Police." </blockquote> <p>Don't give me historical revisionist cr** that the British government and intelligence apparatus did not know what was happening and what would happen.</p> Another quote from Wolpert’s book, the time is March 1947

Tens of thousands of refugees began pouring into Rawalpindi from ravaged villages in the country side. “Attacks on non-Muslims have been organized with extreme savagery,” Jenkins {British governor of Punjab} wired {the Viceroy} on March 17. “Deputy Commissioner Rawalpindi believes that in his district alone there may be 5,000 casualties.” As information flowed in from outlying regions of the Punjab a pattern of “organisation and conspiracy” seemed to emerge, wrote the governor, “in parts of Rawalpindi outbreaks..have occurred almost simultaneously…carefully planned and carried out. All Muslims in the affected districts seems to be involved in or sympathetic to the movement. The Commander 7th Division told me when I saw him yesterday that attacks on non-Muslims had been led in some cases by retired Army officers – some of them pensioners…The Muslim section of the local notables, to whom I spoke…were extremely sulky…non-Muslims are vehemently bitter against the civil services and particularly against the Police.”

Don’t give me historical revisionist cr** that the British government and intelligence apparatus did not know what was happening and what would happen.

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By: Arun http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-51831 Arun Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:33:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-51831 <p>This is a quote from Wolpert's book on Jinnah ("Jinnah of Pakistan"):</p> <blockquote>"I resigned myself fatalisitically to the coming disaster," Penderal Moon wrote that July [1947]. "It was easy to predict disaster but what was the exact form that it would take? ... The Senior Superintendent of Police, Delhi...asked for his opinion as to what would happen...replied crudely but tersely: 'Once a line of division is drawn in the Punjab all Sikhs to the west of it and all Muslims to the east of it will have their ---- chopped off".</blockquote> This is a quote from Wolpert’s book on Jinnah (“Jinnah of Pakistan”):

“I resigned myself fatalisitically to the coming disaster,” Penderal Moon wrote that July [1947]. “It was easy to predict disaster but what was the exact form that it would take? … The Senior Superintendent of Police, Delhi…asked for his opinion as to what would happen…replied crudely but tersely: ‘Once a line of division is drawn in the Punjab all Sikhs to the west of it and all Muslims to the east of it will have their —- chopped off”.
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By: Arun http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-51829 Arun Sat, 25 Mar 2006 21:26:30 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-51829 <p>Unionist Sir Sikandar Hayat Khan had told Sir Penderel Moon around 1940 that proclamation of Pakistan would be a general signal for a massacre of Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab.</p> Unionist Sir Sikandar Hayat Khan had told Sir Penderel Moon around 1940 that proclamation of Pakistan would be a general signal for a massacre of Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab.

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By: sahej http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/23/noonan_freedom_1/comment-page-1/#comment-51800 sahej Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:22:48 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3193#comment-51800 <p>was it really that complicated? flawed means bring about flawed ends. this is great man history you're all on about. jinnah this, nehru that. the people doing the killing and dying are the ones that matter. the difference between the elite and everyone else is that they all get together later for drinks and dancing. they are the only ones insulated from the negotiations they make.</p> <p>whether jinnah meant this or that, whether he was bluffing or not, he was playing with fire, stoking communal feelings. the regular people are as powerful as anyone else, but since they are regular, they have to react to circumstances beyond their control, and sometimes when a mess is made for them, it's they who have to live with it. I doubt highly jinnah or nehru was any more intelligent than my grandfather. My grandfather and the people he lived with had to sit back and watch madness become stoked and boiled on the stove and then they had to see what they could do in the flames. that's the horror of Partition to me. Not that Jinnah or Nehru was misunderstood, or anyone else for that matter.</p> <p>Great men are great because they organize the emotions, passions, desires, and rational plans of others. They can do this for good or ill, with good or ill means. Blatantly playing to communalism in the atmosphere of the time was to organize the worst impluses of the time, not the best. To say that Hindus and Muslims were so distinct as to never inter-marry....that seems a statement a British ivory tower commentator would say. Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs mingled all the time......there is no closer mingling than getting it on, and all three do that to this day if given a chance. So that statement right there implies to me someone who is just playing with people's fear and prejudices to organize one segment of society to a given purpose. Its the whole vote bank idea. Look at what Udham Singh called himself...Ram Mohamed Singh Azad. He went to the UK and was in massive solidarity with the regular british people. Compare this to Jinnah or Nehru. In that light I think Gandhi was a better leader. Say what you will about mystics and all that, but at least Gandhi's primary actions were usually centered around organizing people for harmony and not hatred</p> was it really that complicated? flawed means bring about flawed ends. this is great man history you’re all on about. jinnah this, nehru that. the people doing the killing and dying are the ones that matter. the difference between the elite and everyone else is that they all get together later for drinks and dancing. they are the only ones insulated from the negotiations they make.

whether jinnah meant this or that, whether he was bluffing or not, he was playing with fire, stoking communal feelings. the regular people are as powerful as anyone else, but since they are regular, they have to react to circumstances beyond their control, and sometimes when a mess is made for them, it’s they who have to live with it. I doubt highly jinnah or nehru was any more intelligent than my grandfather. My grandfather and the people he lived with had to sit back and watch madness become stoked and boiled on the stove and then they had to see what they could do in the flames. that’s the horror of Partition to me. Not that Jinnah or Nehru was misunderstood, or anyone else for that matter.

Great men are great because they organize the emotions, passions, desires, and rational plans of others. They can do this for good or ill, with good or ill means. Blatantly playing to communalism in the atmosphere of the time was to organize the worst impluses of the time, not the best. To say that Hindus and Muslims were so distinct as to never inter-marry….that seems a statement a British ivory tower commentator would say. Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs mingled all the time……there is no closer mingling than getting it on, and all three do that to this day if given a chance. So that statement right there implies to me someone who is just playing with people’s fear and prejudices to organize one segment of society to a given purpose. Its the whole vote bank idea. Look at what Udham Singh called himself…Ram Mohamed Singh Azad. He went to the UK and was in massive solidarity with the regular british people. Compare this to Jinnah or Nehru. In that light I think Gandhi was a better leader. Say what you will about mystics and all that, but at least Gandhi’s primary actions were usually centered around organizing people for harmony and not hatred

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