Comments on: It’s not easy being Green http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Ikram http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49725 Ikram Fri, 10 Mar 2006 18:40:29 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49725 <p><i>The terminology you describe would make my kids first-generation Americans, as I was born overseas and came here at a young age. So my parents would be -1th gen and I as 0th gen would be presumed to have less in common with my demographic cohort. It's just not useful.</i></p> <p>No. Under the traditional meanings, you are an immigrant. Your parents are also immigrants. If your parents had additional children after arrival, they would be 'first generation'. Same with any children you may have. It's perfectly useful in delineating between those born here and those born abroad.</p> <p>Maybve the term began to be misused because people became uncomfortable calling themselves 'immigrants'. In Canada, the gvt has even begun using the euphemism 'newcomer'! Perhaps they associate the word immigrant with 'dirty', 'filthy' or 'tired .. poor .. huddled masses' and 'wretched refuse of [the] teeming shore'</p> <p>As noted above, you'll find both meanings in the dictionary.</p> <p>(I've also noticed people on this site using the term '1.5 generation'. Another term used to seem less 'foreign'?)</p> <p>Anyway, as Saheli notes, language evolves. Nobody says 'negro' anymore. The Manish-ist meaning of 1st generation will probably predominate. But a new term will arise to describe people born here. I've heard the term 'born-Canadian' occasionally, to distinguish us from the foreign born. Is the term 'native born' used in the US much? 'American-born'?</p> The terminology you describe would make my kids first-generation Americans, as I was born overseas and came here at a young age. So my parents would be -1th gen and I as 0th gen would be presumed to have less in common with my demographic cohort. It’s just not useful.

No. Under the traditional meanings, you are an immigrant. Your parents are also immigrants. If your parents had additional children after arrival, they would be ‘first generation’. Same with any children you may have. It’s perfectly useful in delineating between those born here and those born abroad.

Maybve the term began to be misused because people became uncomfortable calling themselves ‘immigrants’. In Canada, the gvt has even begun using the euphemism ‘newcomer’! Perhaps they associate the word immigrant with ‘dirty’, ‘filthy’ or ‘tired .. poor .. huddled masses’ and ‘wretched refuse of [the] teeming shore’

As noted above, you’ll find both meanings in the dictionary.

(I’ve also noticed people on this site using the term ’1.5 generation’. Another term used to seem less ‘foreign’?)

Anyway, as Saheli notes, language evolves. Nobody says ‘negro’ anymore. The Manish-ist meaning of 1st generation will probably predominate. But a new term will arise to describe people born here. I’ve heard the term ‘born-Canadian’ occasionally, to distinguish us from the foreign born. Is the term ‘native born’ used in the US much? ‘American-born’?

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By: Saheli http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49703 Saheli Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:06:36 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49703 <p>I hazard a guess that since language evolves and ultimately depends on usage, the 2nd generation = grew up here (birth aside) will eventually take over, b/c we (and Japanese Americans and similarly concerned folks) use the phrase a lot more than media stylists. style books are not infrequently out of step with the general use of language.</p> I hazard a guess that since language evolves and ultimately depends on usage, the 2nd generation = grew up here (birth aside) will eventually take over, b/c we (and Japanese Americans and similarly concerned folks) use the phrase a lot more than media stylists. style books are not infrequently out of step with the general use of language.

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By: Jaina http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49701 Jaina Fri, 10 Mar 2006 14:44:36 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49701 <p>Even the dictionary has conflicting meanings for "first gen", although the primary definition refers to immigrants. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=first-generation</p> <p>first-gen·er·a·tion (fûrstjn-rshn) adj. Of or relating to a person who has left one country and settled in another. Of or relating to a person or persons whose parents are immigrants. Of, relating to, or being the first form or version available to users: first-generation computer software; first-generation camcorders.</p> Even the dictionary has conflicting meanings for “first gen”, although the primary definition refers to immigrants. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=first-generation

first-gen·er·a·tion (fûrstjn-rshn) adj. Of or relating to a person who has left one country and settled in another. Of or relating to a person or persons whose parents are immigrants. Of, relating to, or being the first form or version available to users: first-generation computer software; first-generation camcorders.

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By: Jai http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49697 Jai Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:29:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49697 <p><i>*or you were a minor when your parents came over here.</i></p> <p>.....And brought you with them, of course.</p> *or you were a minor when your parents came over here.

…..And brought you with them, of course.

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By: Jai http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49696 Jai Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:28:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49696 <p>First-Generation: If you immigrated to the West as an adult. Second-Generation: If you were born in the West or you were a minor when your parents came over here.</p> First-Generation: If you immigrated to the West as an adult. Second-Generation: If you were born in the West or you were a minor when your parents came over here.

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By: chick pea http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49694 chick pea Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:26:46 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49694 <p>not getting into the first/second/whatever generation discussion</p> <p>heck he does look like an apprentice wanna be..</p> <p>we need a show down between raj bhakta and mehul..</p> <p>my vote : bow tie bhakta</p> <p>hands down...</p> <p>the third generation chick pea ;)</p> not getting into the first/second/whatever generation discussion

heck he does look like an apprentice wanna be..

we need a show down between raj bhakta and mehul..

my vote : bow tie bhakta

hands down…

the third generation chick pea ;)

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By: Manish Vij http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49688 Manish Vij Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:29:02 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49688 <blockquote>but that's not how it's been traditionally used. </blockquote> <p>Can you show me some examples, and is it relevant given the Asian American context? We're not talking Eastern European immigration in the 1800s here.</p> <blockquote>You and I would be considered immigrants albeit at a much younger age than our parents.</blockquote> <p>W.r.t. cultural affinity, that's a useless taxonomy. Having come over as a young kid, I usually have more in common with someone born here than someone raised in the motherland.</p> but that’s not how it’s been traditionally used.

Can you show me some examples, and is it relevant given the Asian American context? We’re not talking Eastern European immigration in the 1800s here.

You and I would be considered immigrants albeit at a much younger age than our parents.

W.r.t. cultural affinity, that’s a useless taxonomy. Having come over as a young kid, I usually have more in common with someone born here than someone raised in the motherland.

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By: betsyross http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49686 betsyross Fri, 10 Mar 2006 07:06:28 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49686 <blockquote>At what magical point, if not at the point of citizenship switch, does this take place? </blockquote> <p>The day you take your oath of American citizenship is the day you have to get a visa to go to India regardless if you think/feel/sing in Hindi/Telegu/Tamil/Marathi.</p> <blockquote>If you were raised in the U.S. as someone of Indian origin, but move at the age of 20 to France, what exactly are you?</blockquote> <p>An Indian-American in France.</p> <blockquote>we're using it as a rough measure of cultural affinity</blockquote> <p>Exactly, but that's not how it's been traditionally used.</p> <blockquote> So my parents would be -1th gen and I as 0th gen.</blockquote> <p>This is not about software upgrades version 1.0, 2.0. You and I would be considered immigrants albeit at a much younger age than our parents.</p> At what magical point, if not at the point of citizenship switch, does this take place?

The day you take your oath of American citizenship is the day you have to get a visa to go to India regardless if you think/feel/sing in Hindi/Telegu/Tamil/Marathi.

If you were raised in the U.S. as someone of Indian origin, but move at the age of 20 to France, what exactly are you?

An Indian-American in France.

we’re using it as a rough measure of cultural affinity

Exactly, but that’s not how it’s been traditionally used.

So my parents would be -1th gen and I as 0th gen.

This is not about software upgrades version 1.0, 2.0. You and I would be considered immigrants albeit at a much younger age than our parents.

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By: Manish Vij http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49669 Manish Vij Fri, 10 Mar 2006 03:39:21 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49669 <blockquote>this site's use of "first-generation American" is not in concert in how the term is traditionally used in the media, in letters</blockquote> <p>Link? We use the prevalent terminology among Asian Americans.</p> <blockquote>the first generation American is the son/daughter who is born in this country</blockquote> <p>The reason that fell out of favor among Asian Americans is that it defines immigrants who have been here 30 years, the majority of their lives, as not-American.</p> <p>You seem to be using the terminology in the legalistic sense of natural-born citizenship. That's not of interest to me as a naming scheme-- we're using it as a rough measure of cultural affinity.</p> <p>The terminology you describe would make my <i>kids</i> first-generation Americans, as I was born overseas and came here at a young age. So my parents would be -1th gen and I as 0th gen would be presumed to have less in common with my demographic cohort. It's just not useful.</p> <p>The issei (1st gen)/nisei (2nd gen) model is the way to go here and is in fact the de facto terminology among Asian Americans.</p> this site’s use of “first-generation American” is not in concert in how the term is traditionally used in the media, in letters

Link? We use the prevalent terminology among Asian Americans.

the first generation American is the son/daughter who is born in this country

The reason that fell out of favor among Asian Americans is that it defines immigrants who have been here 30 years, the majority of their lives, as not-American.

You seem to be using the terminology in the legalistic sense of natural-born citizenship. That’s not of interest to me as a naming scheme– we’re using it as a rough measure of cultural affinity.

The terminology you describe would make my kids first-generation Americans, as I was born overseas and came here at a young age. So my parents would be -1th gen and I as 0th gen would be presumed to have less in common with my demographic cohort. It’s just not useful.

The issei (1st gen)/nisei (2nd gen) model is the way to go here and is in fact the de facto terminology among Asian Americans.

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By: Ajith http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/03/09/its_not_easy_be/comment-page-1/#comment-49663 Ajith Fri, 10 Mar 2006 03:07:38 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3107#comment-49663 <p>"Immigrants. If they become Americans, then naturalized Americans."</p> <p>The American/Indian either/or mode of identity is somewhat lacking in its descriptive powers. Are you saying that the day that an Indian national becomes an American citizen, he or she exchanges his or her Indian label for the American one? At what magical point, if not at the point of citizenship switch, does this take place? I think the problem here is that nationality alone cannot adequately describe someone. If you were raised in the U.S. as someone of Indian origin, but move at the age of 20 to France, what exactly are you? You're ethnically Indian, culturally American and legally (in terms of nationality) British. The mutually exclusive model which doesn't allow for the description of first-generation Indian Americans as such would classify the person above as merely a naturalized Briton. This situation is somewhat more complicated than that of an Indian who immigrates to the U.S., but the same logic applies.</p> “Immigrants. If they become Americans, then naturalized Americans.”

The American/Indian either/or mode of identity is somewhat lacking in its descriptive powers. Are you saying that the day that an Indian national becomes an American citizen, he or she exchanges his or her Indian label for the American one? At what magical point, if not at the point of citizenship switch, does this take place? I think the problem here is that nationality alone cannot adequately describe someone. If you were raised in the U.S. as someone of Indian origin, but move at the age of 20 to France, what exactly are you? You’re ethnically Indian, culturally American and legally (in terms of nationality) British. The mutually exclusive model which doesn’t allow for the description of first-generation Indian Americans as such would classify the person above as merely a naturalized Briton. This situation is somewhat more complicated than that of an Indian who immigrates to the U.S., but the same logic applies.

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