Comments on: Big boxes looming http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Sahej http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47567 Sahej Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:43:30 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47567 <p>;-) yeah i've read John Steinbeck</p> ;-) yeah i’ve read John Steinbeck

]]> By: vinod-at-large http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47566 vinod-at-large Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:40:23 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47566 <blockquote>Wal Mart itself has likely not come into business to look after the well-being of consumers, and if the effect of Wal Mart is net positive that's in some ways a bit of an accident and not a goal.</blockquote> <p>This is true of Capitalism, broadly ;-)</p> Wal Mart itself has likely not come into business to look after the well-being of consumers, and if the effect of Wal Mart is net positive that’s in some ways a bit of an accident and not a goal.

This is true of Capitalism, broadly ;-)

]]> By: Sahej http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47551 Sahej Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:22:42 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47551 <p>Hmm, I wonder if its such a knockout case. Perhaps people on the "side" that thinks Wal Mart is net not a good development are not totally without a point. Its hard to figure that there is not some drawback from the situation. Maybe you're correct that taken as an aggregate; "if you ad them up" Wal Mart has been net positive. It makes sense on the face of it; inflation remained lower and consumers had access to high quality goods. I also see the point that American jobs are not any better than Indian or Chinese jobs. However "point instances" are also people, and its not so easy to shrug off the displacement thats happened. I think people are searching for answers and remedies of some of that displacement. You're right demogoguing Wal Mart isn't likely to give anyone an actionable answer, but answers probably do need to be found for people who are facing changed life circumstances. Wal Mart itself has likely not come into business to look after the well-being of consumers, and if the effect of Wal Mart is net positive that's in some ways a bit of an accident and not a goal. I would not argue with you on either of the Macro-Econ parameters you're setting up though. There is also the idea that access to consumer goods over a short term could be outweighed by the possibility that without good jobs or a decent educational "feeder system", some of those Wal Mart beneficiaries themselves are not going to be able to afford to continue to buy even the lower cost consumer goods. Or else, without adequate health care or other more basic needs met, such as more spritual needs, being able to buy consumer goods might become a phyric victory. Either that, or a plasma TV screen becomes cold comfort to someone simply whiling away the days in poor health, with little job prospects and not much for their kids to do. Is that Wal Mart's fault? Maybe some more screwball people would say yes but not everyone putting an eye to the large effect Wal Mart has had is doing that. Its also quite clear that attacking Wal Mart as some kind of purposefully evil corporation is screw-ball</p> Hmm, I wonder if its such a knockout case. Perhaps people on the “side” that thinks Wal Mart is net not a good development are not totally without a point. Its hard to figure that there is not some drawback from the situation. Maybe you’re correct that taken as an aggregate; “if you ad them up” Wal Mart has been net positive. It makes sense on the face of it; inflation remained lower and consumers had access to high quality goods. I also see the point that American jobs are not any better than Indian or Chinese jobs. However “point instances” are also people, and its not so easy to shrug off the displacement thats happened. I think people are searching for answers and remedies of some of that displacement. You’re right demogoguing Wal Mart isn’t likely to give anyone an actionable answer, but answers probably do need to be found for people who are facing changed life circumstances. Wal Mart itself has likely not come into business to look after the well-being of consumers, and if the effect of Wal Mart is net positive that’s in some ways a bit of an accident and not a goal. I would not argue with you on either of the Macro-Econ parameters you’re setting up though. There is also the idea that access to consumer goods over a short term could be outweighed by the possibility that without good jobs or a decent educational “feeder system”, some of those Wal Mart beneficiaries themselves are not going to be able to afford to continue to buy even the lower cost consumer goods. Or else, without adequate health care or other more basic needs met, such as more spritual needs, being able to buy consumer goods might become a phyric victory. Either that, or a plasma TV screen becomes cold comfort to someone simply whiling away the days in poor health, with little job prospects and not much for their kids to do. Is that Wal Mart’s fault? Maybe some more screwball people would say yes but not everyone putting an eye to the large effect Wal Mart has had is doing that. Its also quite clear that attacking Wal Mart as some kind of purposefully evil corporation is screw-ball

]]> By: Adam Smith http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47547 Adam Smith Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:48:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47547 <p><b></p> <blockquote> I would drink a pint of liquid poop (टटी)rather than allow walmart to come to my neighborhood.</blockquote> <p></b></p> <p>This would sell a lot of T-Shirts.</p>

I would drink a pint of liquid poop (टटी)rather than allow walmart to come to my neighborhood.

This would sell a lot of T-Shirts.

]]> By: vinod-at-large http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47536 vinod-at-large Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:34:29 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47536 <blockquote>Maybe my use of Macro-Econ is not the right term. What I mean is that, the economics for people in the US who shopped at Wal Mart and had factory jobs or depended on the manufacturing industry. Was Wal Mart a good deal for them, or in your view or other's view, was the US loss of manufacturing due to some other reason. I personally don't know. Also from the point of view of worker's benefits, Wal Mart doesn't give the same benefits, and I bet that's another negative for the Wal Mart rise. Thats probably not a concern in India where a Wal Mart job is probably going to be seen as cushy. But the step-down from a factory job with health insurance to Wal Mart seems like it hurt. </blockquote> <p>On both fronts, you're talking about macro-econ issues. On balance, if you add up the [benefits of Wal-Mart] vs. [costs / sins of Wal-Mart] the benefits vastly outweigh. You'll find point instances of cost (for ex., the cornershop who can't compete) but these need to be weighed against the benefits (for ex., lower inflation) all the while recognizing that <a href="http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Schumpeter.html">Schumperterian </a>economic displacement is inevitable (the Italian corner grocery shuts down and becomes a Vietnamese nail salon)</p> <p>Top-down studies - like the ones I cited before - make attempts to quantify this. Bottoms-up analysis -- that all transactions between consumers and Wal-Mart are uncoerced and thus mutually net beneficial -- argues the same thing.</p> <p>Wal-Mart isn't uniquely to blame for "the loss of US Manufacturing" jobs nor is there any reason why US workers have a stronger "right" to such a job vs. a worker in China or India.</p> Maybe my use of Macro-Econ is not the right term. What I mean is that, the economics for people in the US who shopped at Wal Mart and had factory jobs or depended on the manufacturing industry. Was Wal Mart a good deal for them, or in your view or other’s view, was the US loss of manufacturing due to some other reason. I personally don’t know. Also from the point of view of worker’s benefits, Wal Mart doesn’t give the same benefits, and I bet that’s another negative for the Wal Mart rise. Thats probably not a concern in India where a Wal Mart job is probably going to be seen as cushy. But the step-down from a factory job with health insurance to Wal Mart seems like it hurt.

On both fronts, you’re talking about macro-econ issues. On balance, if you add up the [benefits of Wal-Mart] vs. [costs / sins of Wal-Mart] the benefits vastly outweigh. You’ll find point instances of cost (for ex., the cornershop who can’t compete) but these need to be weighed against the benefits (for ex., lower inflation) all the while recognizing that Schumperterian economic displacement is inevitable (the Italian corner grocery shuts down and becomes a Vietnamese nail salon)

Top-down studies – like the ones I cited before – make attempts to quantify this. Bottoms-up analysis — that all transactions between consumers and Wal-Mart are uncoerced and thus mutually net beneficial — argues the same thing.

Wal-Mart isn’t uniquely to blame for “the loss of US Manufacturing” jobs nor is there any reason why US workers have a stronger “right” to such a job vs. a worker in China or India.

]]> By: All Mixed Up http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47520 All Mixed Up Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:45:03 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47520 <p>hey,</p> <p>i'm posting about something completely unrelated, but we did a fundraiser for south asian earthquake relief and now we need to pick a charity [yeah i know not necessarily the most intuitive way to go about fundraising]. does anyone have any ideas on non-religious charities that will direct the money towards the affected areas?</p> <p>thanks!</p> <p>just shoot me an email at cusailgurl(at)yahoo.com</p> hey,

i’m posting about something completely unrelated, but we did a fundraiser for south asian earthquake relief and now we need to pick a charity [yeah i know not necessarily the most intuitive way to go about fundraising]. does anyone have any ideas on non-religious charities that will direct the money towards the affected areas?

thanks!

just shoot me an email at cusailgurl(at)yahoo.com

]]> By: dhaavak http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47514 dhaavak Tue, 21 Feb 2006 04:41:43 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47514 <p>pardon me - the little text in hindi in my posting above said - "Get your Tomatoes !!!! " - a not uncommon refrain in the streets of north indian towns, cities.</p> pardon me – the little text in hindi in my posting above said – “Get your Tomatoes !!!! ” – a not uncommon refrain in the streets of north indian towns, cities.

]]> By: daavak http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47513 daavak Tue, 21 Feb 2006 04:40:19 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47513 <blockquote>damn..from seeing tgif, kfc, 31 flavors, micky d's, and now the big walton family is invading bangalore? whohooo... that should be ehem.. quite interesting.. i will miss the street vendors and all that..since they will likley be taken over by this conglomerate.. ahh... sigh... next thing you know, there will be no goats, elephants and cows roaming the streets of india..and then what will we look forward to?</blockquote> <p>My dear chholey - yes it would be a sad world indeed were we to lose the individuals to faceless smileys (sic) - i dont know what will happen in india - but if I map it to the rise of the lifestyle stores in my little town ... i think all will not be crushed. even in the world of the supergrocery stores (upscale-bankers-advertising-nutballs-singletonscruisingforpartners-type - Loblaws, downscale-immigrant-pennypicnhing-couponsaving-bulkpurchasing-type-noname-goods No Frills, granola-eating-hairy-armpit-bourgeoishippies-SUV-driving-BoBo-couples Whole Foods) there is room for farmers' markets and coops where one can only get seasonal stuff. So you are likely to keep hearing ... <b>टमाटर ले लो !!!!! </b> from the street now and then at least through the span of my life.</p> damn..from seeing tgif, kfc, 31 flavors, micky d’s, and now the big walton family is invading bangalore? whohooo… that should be ehem.. quite interesting.. i will miss the street vendors and all that..since they will likley be taken over by this conglomerate.. ahh… sigh… next thing you know, there will be no goats, elephants and cows roaming the streets of india..and then what will we look forward to?

My dear chholey – yes it would be a sad world indeed were we to lose the individuals to faceless smileys (sic) – i dont know what will happen in india – but if I map it to the rise of the lifestyle stores in my little town … i think all will not be crushed. even in the world of the supergrocery stores (upscale-bankers-advertising-nutballs-singletonscruisingforpartners-type – Loblaws, downscale-immigrant-pennypicnhing-couponsaving-bulkpurchasing-type-noname-goods No Frills, granola-eating-hairy-armpit-bourgeoishippies-SUV-driving-BoBo-couples Whole Foods) there is room for farmers’ markets and coops where one can only get seasonal stuff. So you are likely to keep hearing … टमाटर ले लो !!!!! from the street now and then at least through the span of my life.

]]> By: dhaavak http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47512 dhaavak Tue, 21 Feb 2006 03:49:58 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47512 <p>hello - good thread - cant but help chip in. <br/> Some personal context, I sell business services and businss to the retail sector in NA. I cant quote journals or stuff - but I manage to hit the right chords with senior execs so seem to be in the know on this sector. I also keep one toe in India and have a close friend whose job right now is to build up a brand in India through a retail store chain. I get the straight "dope" from him and he keeps me abreast on Ikeas, walmarts, big bazzars and such. That being said, I admit to a leftist streak, which is why I am content riding the streetcars of T.O. (yoooo hooooo linngus) rather than drive a wankmobile down south. So here's my dope from the gut. <br /> I would drink a pint of liquid poop (टटी)rather than allow walmart to come to my neighborhood. i can understand when people protest. To hell with macroeconomics. i dont like it and i dont need it. It could be just a NIMBY thing. I also voted against Walmart when they wanted to set up in Guelph by rolling over a graveyard and putting up a giant waste tunnel. <br /> That being said, Walmart coming to India is a good thing - the best reason being that a publicly traded corporation as a trading entity would force a lot of banias to pick up their act. I have an uncle, eponymous to one of the bloggers, who lost his shirt - no silly, dont be literal - to some scumbags who shut shop and left town. It's a vicious game out there and the distributors have to play dirty (musclemen) to recover monies from the retailers. Walmart will play hard but fair - at the very least it'll bring process innovation and standardization to the distribution industry - a funciton of its size. big bazaar has created a different, but profitable model of operation and i will eagerly see how walmart takes on desh.<br /></p> hello – good thread – cant but help chip in.
Some personal context, I sell business services and businss to the retail sector in NA. I cant quote journals or stuff – but I manage to hit the right chords with senior execs so seem to be in the know on this sector. I also keep one toe in India and have a close friend whose job right now is to build up a brand in India through a retail store chain. I get the straight “dope” from him and he keeps me abreast on Ikeas, walmarts, big bazzars and such. That being said, I admit to a leftist streak, which is why I am content riding the streetcars of T.O. (yoooo hooooo linngus) rather than drive a wankmobile down south. So here’s my dope from the gut.
I would drink a pint of liquid poop (टटी)rather than allow walmart to come to my neighborhood. i can understand when people protest. To hell with macroeconomics. i dont like it and i dont need it. It could be just a NIMBY thing. I also voted against Walmart when they wanted to set up in Guelph by rolling over a graveyard and putting up a giant waste tunnel.
That being said, Walmart coming to India is a good thing – the best reason being that a publicly traded corporation as a trading entity would force a lot of banias to pick up their act. I have an uncle, eponymous to one of the bloggers, who lost his shirt – no silly, dont be literal – to some scumbags who shut shop and left town. It’s a vicious game out there and the distributors have to play dirty (musclemen) to recover monies from the retailers. Walmart will play hard but fair – at the very least it’ll bring process innovation and standardization to the distribution industry – a funciton of its size. big bazaar has created a different, but profitable model of operation and i will eagerly see how walmart takes on desh.

]]> By: Sahej http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2006/02/20/big_boxes_loomi/comment-page-1/#comment-47509 Sahej Tue, 21 Feb 2006 02:50:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=3035#comment-47509 <p>Vinod,</p> <p>Maybe my use of Macro-Econ is not the right term. What I mean is that, the economics for people in the US who shopped at Wal Mart and had factory jobs or depended on the manufacturing industry. Was Wal Mart a good deal for them, or in your view or other's view, was the US loss of manufacturing due to some other reason. I personally don't know.</p> <p>Also from the point of view of worker's benefits, Wal Mart doesn't give the same benefits, and I bet that's another negative for the Wal Mart rise. Thats probably not a concern in India where a Wal Mart job is probably going to be seen as cushy. But the step-down from a factory job with health insurance to Wal Mart seems like it hurt.</p> Vinod,

Maybe my use of Macro-Econ is not the right term. What I mean is that, the economics for people in the US who shopped at Wal Mart and had factory jobs or depended on the manufacturing industry. Was Wal Mart a good deal for them, or in your view or other’s view, was the US loss of manufacturing due to some other reason. I personally don’t know.

Also from the point of view of worker’s benefits, Wal Mart doesn’t give the same benefits, and I bet that’s another negative for the Wal Mart rise. Thats probably not a concern in India where a Wal Mart job is probably going to be seen as cushy. But the step-down from a factory job with health insurance to Wal Mart seems like it hurt.

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