Comments on: Freedom Of, Freedom From http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Quizman http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39199 Quizman Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:32:11 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39199 <p><i>And I'm not saying this to be extreme - nearly every religious community in India under one empire or another was treated cruelly</i></p> <p>No, they were not. Hindus and Sikhs faced extraordinary <b>official</b> persecution while people of other religions did not.</p> And I’m not saying this to be extreme – nearly every religious community in India under one empire or another was treated cruelly

No, they were not. Hindus and Sikhs faced extraordinary official persecution while people of other religions did not.

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By: Joel http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39192 Joel Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:44:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39192 <blockquote>Honestly, this sounds particularly whiny and completely ignores the benefits that many Hindus receive as the majority religion. The Indian Constitution protects religious minorities because people were scared of joining a federation that wasn't going to protect minority rights. Can you imagine living through the violence of colonization, independence, and later Partition and not wanting some kind of self-protection to ensure that you, too, wouldn't be targeted and annihilated in this new project?</blockquote> <p>Why not have an egalitarian system where you have equality under the law and individual rights similar to America (sans affirmative action) ?</p> <p>Also worth noting that the majority muslim parts of India (with the exception of the Kashmir valley) at the time of the partition formed their own countries where Islam is priviledged over all other religions.</p> Honestly, this sounds particularly whiny and completely ignores the benefits that many Hindus receive as the majority religion. The Indian Constitution protects religious minorities because people were scared of joining a federation that wasn’t going to protect minority rights. Can you imagine living through the violence of colonization, independence, and later Partition and not wanting some kind of self-protection to ensure that you, too, wouldn’t be targeted and annihilated in this new project?

Why not have an egalitarian system where you have equality under the law and individual rights similar to America (sans affirmative action) ?

Also worth noting that the majority muslim parts of India (with the exception of the Kashmir valley) at the time of the partition formed their own countries where Islam is priviledged over all other religions.

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By: Camille http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39154 Camille Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:08:41 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39154 <blockquote>The point about the indian constitution is it treats hindus as second class citizens compared to religious minorities, while the u.s. constitution does not discriminate on the basis of religion.</blockquote> <p>Honestly, this sounds particularly whiny and completely ignores the benefits that many Hindus receive as the majority religion. The Indian Constitution protects religious minorities because people were <i>scared</i> of joining a federation that wasn't going to protect minority rights. Can you imagine living through the violence of colonization, independence, and later Partition and not wanting some kind of self-protection to ensure that you, too, wouldn't be targeted and annihilated in this new project? And I'm not saying this to be extreme - nearly every religious community in India under one empire or another was treated cruelly. I think states entered the formation of Indian democracy with a lot of hope that the rhetoric of justice and equality would be upheld.</p> The point about the indian constitution is it treats hindus as second class citizens compared to religious minorities, while the u.s. constitution does not discriminate on the basis of religion.

Honestly, this sounds particularly whiny and completely ignores the benefits that many Hindus receive as the majority religion. The Indian Constitution protects religious minorities because people were scared of joining a federation that wasn’t going to protect minority rights. Can you imagine living through the violence of colonization, independence, and later Partition and not wanting some kind of self-protection to ensure that you, too, wouldn’t be targeted and annihilated in this new project? And I’m not saying this to be extreme – nearly every religious community in India under one empire or another was treated cruelly. I think states entered the formation of Indian democracy with a lot of hope that the rhetoric of justice and equality would be upheld.

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By: observer http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39132 observer Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:23:18 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39132 <p>PG</p> <p>No. Indian govt's interference in temple affairs is not due to the constitution. It's because the govt "administers" the temples. Historically kings used to patronize temples and pay for their maintenance but after British took over from them and Indian govt from British, it's come into its purview. Of course, it doesn't do much except benefit from temple revenues, but I digress...</p> PG

No. Indian govt’s interference in temple affairs is not due to the constitution. It’s because the govt “administers” the temples. Historically kings used to patronize temples and pay for their maintenance but after British took over from them and Indian govt from British, it’s come into its purview. Of course, it doesn’t do much except benefit from temple revenues, but I digress…

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By: PG http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39093 PG Tue, 20 Dec 2005 07:06:22 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39093 <p>Quizman,</p> <p>Thanks for the info. I'm surprised that it hasn't been changed back.</p> <p>observer,</p> <p>The U.S. Constitution says nothing about economic or social justice, so saying that it requires the government to secure either takes a significant leap. The Indian Constitution, on the other hand, seems a lot more oriented toward reshaping society -- hence the provision for forcing Hindu temples to accept all people and for affirmative action.</p> Quizman,

Thanks for the info. I’m surprised that it hasn’t been changed back.

observer,

The U.S. Constitution says nothing about economic or social justice, so saying that it requires the government to secure either takes a significant leap. The Indian Constitution, on the other hand, seems a lot more oriented toward reshaping society — hence the provision for forcing Hindu temples to accept all people and for affirmative action.

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By: Quizman http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39091 Quizman Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:40:08 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39091 <p>PG,</p> <p>The term "SOCIALIST" was not in the original preamble. It was added by Indira Gandhi during her dictatorship (the emergency). She had the audacity to change the preamble of the constitution.</p> <p>Incidentally, I love reading the transcripts of the constituent assembly debates which are available on the Parliament of India website. Sadly, it lacks a good search mechanism.</p> PG,

The term “SOCIALIST” was not in the original preamble. It was added by Indira Gandhi during her dictatorship (the emergency). She had the audacity to change the preamble of the constitution.

Incidentally, I love reading the transcripts of the constituent assembly debates which are available on the Parliament of India website. Sadly, it lacks a good search mechanism.

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By: observer http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39082 observer Tue, 20 Dec 2005 03:39:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39082 <p>PG,</p> <p>Going by the way you interpret things, anything could be made to "seem to require some amount of" anything.</p> PG,

Going by the way you interpret things, anything could be made to “seem to require some amount of” anything.

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By: PG http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39079 PG Tue, 20 Dec 2005 03:23:23 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39079 <p>Moor Nam,</p> <p><i>The job of the Constitution/Government is to provide justice and equal rights for all, not to do social engineering.</i></p> <p>Another difference I noticed between the U.S. and Indian Constitutions: the latter begins with, "WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens: JUSTICE, social, economic and political"</p> <p>Social and economic justice seem to require some amount of "social engineering."</p> Moor Nam,

The job of the Constitution/Government is to provide justice and equal rights for all, not to do social engineering.

Another difference I noticed between the U.S. and Indian Constitutions: the latter begins with, “WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens: JUSTICE, social, economic and political”

Social and economic justice seem to require some amount of “social engineering.”

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By: Kumar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39073 Kumar Tue, 20 Dec 2005 02:33:29 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39073 <p>Mr. Agarwal:</p> <p>Your ex post justification of the differential govt. treatment accorded to religious communities is ahistorical. While I wouldn't call the attempt to cater to non-Hindu communities 'pandering', I suspect that those provisions of the Indian Constitution were written in an attempt to contain the effects of India's communal fragmentation: Not so much an attempt to create 'mosaics' (gorgeous or otherwise), but an attempt to stave off chaos.</p> <p>The terrible irony, of course, is that in effecting 'remedies' which discriminate against one religious community, India is even farther from being a 'mosaic' (of any sort whatever). Instead, this attempt has resulted in an even greater fragmentation of Indian society.</p> <p>So, here's a balance sheet: A govt. that openly discriminates against one religion--in some matters--in the name of secularism and tolerance and lovely mosaics. And what do we have in India? No mosaics, but communities ever more isolated from each other. I don't think the ends (mosaic etc) justifies the means (discrimination against one community, in some matters) even in principle; but for those who do, the current state of affairs in India ought to force a re-examination of such ideas.</p> <p>Kumar</p> Mr. Agarwal:

Your ex post justification of the differential govt. treatment accorded to religious communities is ahistorical. While I wouldn’t call the attempt to cater to non-Hindu communities ‘pandering’, I suspect that those provisions of the Indian Constitution were written in an attempt to contain the effects of India’s communal fragmentation: Not so much an attempt to create ‘mosaics’ (gorgeous or otherwise), but an attempt to stave off chaos.

The terrible irony, of course, is that in effecting ‘remedies’ which discriminate against one religious community, India is even farther from being a ‘mosaic’ (of any sort whatever). Instead, this attempt has resulted in an even greater fragmentation of Indian society.

So, here’s a balance sheet: A govt. that openly discriminates against one religion–in some matters–in the name of secularism and tolerance and lovely mosaics. And what do we have in India? No mosaics, but communities ever more isolated from each other. I don’t think the ends (mosaic etc) justifies the means (discrimination against one community, in some matters) even in principle; but for those who do, the current state of affairs in India ought to force a re-examination of such ideas.

Kumar

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By: Quizman http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/19/freedom_of_free/comment-page-1/#comment-39058 Quizman Tue, 20 Dec 2005 00:06:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2760#comment-39058 <p>typo salse = false pander = pander to</p> typo salse = false pander = pander to

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