Comments on: Conversion Factors http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: mina http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-3/#comment-229274 mina Mon, 26 Jan 2009 19:32:20 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-229274 <p>only hindus can say Pehle kasai, phir isai’</p> only hindus can say Pehle kasai, phir isai’

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By: mysteriousna http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-3/#comment-46464 mysteriousna Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:16:47 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-46464 <p>"Let us teach our followers that religion does not grow by quantity of numbers, but by quality of spirituality. We want to stress the unity in diversity, that there are more things that unite us than divide."</p> <p>Good. Now let's hope that the abrahamic religions, especially Christianity and Islam, can also teach their followers the same. Perhaps the Pope and Pat Robertson would do well do read the above. Why is it whenever Hindus or Buddhists or any member of a non-abrahamic religion raises legitimate grievances about conversion and proselytization, followers of abrahamic religions proceed to quote either verses from Hindu/Buddhist scripture about tolerance or quotes from Hindu/Buddhist etc. leaders about unity in diversity etc.. It's as if they think reminding Hindus/Buddhists of their essential tolerance for many paths to God is like patting them on the head and saying "There, there. There's no need to fear us. See how tolerant you are. It's spirituality that matters, not numbers. Meanwhile, please excuse us while we try by hook or by crook to convert as many of you as possible away from your wonderful, tolerant religion that should tolerate our missionary activities because your religion tolerates all paths to God."</p> <p>Anna: "the world's first Christians created beautifully unique, syncretic traditions while the ancestors of the evangelical missionaries you are referring to were putting their faith in trees and fairies."</p> <p>Now surely you're not implying that somehow those who put their faith in trees or fairies are somehow inferior to Christians? So what if people worship trees or fairies? Are they any less worthy of worship than someone who allegedly lived 2000 years ago and whose life story bears startling resemblances to that of Gods who came long before him?</p> <p>Also, if Dalits leave Hinduism to escape caste prejudice, why do they still call themselves Dalit after converting to Christianity. And why does the Indian church discriminate so much against Dalits? I've heard of separate burial grounds for Dalits who were refused burial in "upper caste" churches. Christians themselves have written about the prejudice against Dalits within the Indian church.</p> “Let us teach our followers that religion does not grow by quantity of numbers, but by quality of spirituality. We want to stress the unity in diversity, that there are more things that unite us than divide.”

Good. Now let’s hope that the abrahamic religions, especially Christianity and Islam, can also teach their followers the same. Perhaps the Pope and Pat Robertson would do well do read the above. Why is it whenever Hindus or Buddhists or any member of a non-abrahamic religion raises legitimate grievances about conversion and proselytization, followers of abrahamic religions proceed to quote either verses from Hindu/Buddhist scripture about tolerance or quotes from Hindu/Buddhist etc. leaders about unity in diversity etc.. It’s as if they think reminding Hindus/Buddhists of their essential tolerance for many paths to God is like patting them on the head and saying “There, there. There’s no need to fear us. See how tolerant you are. It’s spirituality that matters, not numbers. Meanwhile, please excuse us while we try by hook or by crook to convert as many of you as possible away from your wonderful, tolerant religion that should tolerate our missionary activities because your religion tolerates all paths to God.”

Anna: “the world’s first Christians created beautifully unique, syncretic traditions while the ancestors of the evangelical missionaries you are referring to were putting their faith in trees and fairies.”

Now surely you’re not implying that somehow those who put their faith in trees or fairies are somehow inferior to Christians? So what if people worship trees or fairies? Are they any less worthy of worship than someone who allegedly lived 2000 years ago and whose life story bears startling resemblances to that of Gods who came long before him?

Also, if Dalits leave Hinduism to escape caste prejudice, why do they still call themselves Dalit after converting to Christianity. And why does the Indian church discriminate so much against Dalits? I’ve heard of separate burial grounds for Dalits who were refused burial in “upper caste” churches. Christians themselves have written about the prejudice against Dalits within the Indian church.

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By: confused http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-3/#comment-41343 confused Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:21:21 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-41343 <p>what dose pg even stand for?</p> what dose pg even stand for?

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By: confused http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-2/#comment-40621 confused Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:11:54 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-40621 <p>um, i get what your saying, but how do you write a bibliography for this page? Cuz for global i need to.</p> um, i get what your saying, but how do you write a bibliography for this page? Cuz for global i need to.

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By: badmash http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-2/#comment-37611 badmash Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:54:02 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-37611 <p>I guess this thread has been talked into oblivion, but let me just end with these words from an address delivered to the Archbishop of Cantebury when he visited the Shri Swaminarayan Mandir in the UK earlier this year:</p> <p>Atmaswarup Swami in his address spoke of the proud Hindu tradition of welcoming visitors from all faiths... he added, "Let us teach our followers that religion does not grow by quantity of numbers, but by quality of spirituality. We want to stress the unity in diversity, that there are more things that unite us than divide."</p> I guess this thread has been talked into oblivion, but let me just end with these words from an address delivered to the Archbishop of Cantebury when he visited the Shri Swaminarayan Mandir in the UK earlier this year:

Atmaswarup Swami in his address spoke of the proud Hindu tradition of welcoming visitors from all faiths… he added, “Let us teach our followers that religion does not grow by quantity of numbers, but by quality of spirituality. We want to stress the unity in diversity, that there are more things that unite us than divide.”

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By: badmash http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-2/#comment-37166 badmash Tue, 06 Dec 2005 23:23:34 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-37166 <p>Epoch - The discussion that you linked to addresses policy, management and enrollment. I don't see anything about funding (am I missing it?).</p> <p>Ok, let's grant the scenario that you describe. Is it discriminatory for the government to grant funding to some and not to others - prima facie yes, but under minority conditions no. By doing this, the government is allowing a minority group (religious, linguistic) enough resources to offset disadvantages (preventing cultural dissipation) in an environment which is already to a majority group's advantage. Isn't this part of what a social contract is?</p> Epoch – The discussion that you linked to addresses policy, management and enrollment. I don’t see anything about funding (am I missing it?).

Ok, let’s grant the scenario that you describe. Is it discriminatory for the government to grant funding to some and not to others – prima facie yes, but under minority conditions no. By doing this, the government is allowing a minority group (religious, linguistic) enough resources to offset disadvantages (preventing cultural dissipation) in an environment which is already to a majority group’s advantage. Isn’t this part of what a social contract is?

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By: epoch http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-2/#comment-37146 epoch Tue, 06 Dec 2005 20:54:00 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-37146 <blockquote>I don't see why this is perceived as discriminatory.</blockquote> <p>OK. Allow me to illustrate with this scenario.</p> <p>America has a secular nationalized school system like India.</p> <p>Imagine what would happen if America decides that the Christians enjoy the "significant natural advantages of space, language, social outlook and sheer numbers" and decides to follow India's example.</p> <p>The American government starts giving taxpayer money to fund Jewish, Muslim and Hindu religious schools but refuses to give money to fund Christian schools. Saying instead that Christians must use the state run secular public school system.</p> <p>This scenario mirrors the situtation in India. You don't see this as being discrimination on basis of religion ?</p> <p>Furthermore justification based on socio-econmic disadvantage isn't valid either as the upper and middle class Hindus in India send their kids to private school and the law doesn't affect them directly.</p> <p>It hurts the poor and disadvantaged sections of the Hindu population who can't afford private school because it forces them to use a very substandard public school system.</p> I don’t see why this is perceived as discriminatory.

OK. Allow me to illustrate with this scenario.

America has a secular nationalized school system like India.

Imagine what would happen if America decides that the Christians enjoy the “significant natural advantages of space, language, social outlook and sheer numbers” and decides to follow India’s example.

The American government starts giving taxpayer money to fund Jewish, Muslim and Hindu religious schools but refuses to give money to fund Christian schools. Saying instead that Christians must use the state run secular public school system.

This scenario mirrors the situtation in India. You don’t see this as being discrimination on basis of religion ?

Furthermore justification based on socio-econmic disadvantage isn’t valid either as the upper and middle class Hindus in India send their kids to private school and the law doesn’t affect them directly.

It hurts the poor and disadvantaged sections of the Hindu population who can’t afford private school because it forces them to use a very substandard public school system.

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By: Rani http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-2/#comment-37120 Rani Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:33:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-37120 <blockquote> <blockquote> <p>I know that my interpretation of Christianity might not be universal -- accepted by all -- but if is accepted by lots (say more than 50%) -- then we have a problem -- and I think that percentage is closer to 99%.</p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <p>you think that 99% of people think how you do!!!!</p> <p>how christ-like of you to have this extensive back and forth just to get through to the 1% that got away...</p>

I know that my interpretation of Christianity might not be universal — accepted by all — but if is accepted by lots (say more than 50%) — then we have a problem — and I think that percentage is closer to 99%.

you think that 99% of people think how you do!!!!

how christ-like of you to have this extensive back and forth just to get through to the 1% that got away…

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By: zimblymallu http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-2/#comment-37102 zimblymallu Tue, 06 Dec 2005 11:47:23 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-37102 <p>@shx What is it you want "christians" to admit? That christianity forces a choice on you if you do not believe in it? Its true. It does.</p> <p>wouldn't you say that "deep down", the point of conversion is to choose a way of life other than the one you have right now?</p> @shx What is it you want “christians” to admit? That christianity forces a choice on you if you do not believe in it? Its true. It does.

wouldn’t you say that “deep down”, the point of conversion is to choose a way of life other than the one you have right now?

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By: ashvin http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/12/03/conversion_fact/comment-page-2/#comment-37080 ashvin Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:15:54 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2614#comment-37080 <p>Daycruz :</p> <p>William Dalrymple tries to answer your question about Thomas and Kerala in this article from the Guardian : <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,,194252,00.html">"The incredible journey :Did St Thomas found a church in south India? William Dalrymple unravels a Christian mystery"</a></p> <p>It's not really important to me if St.T did or did not get to Kerala but the history is fascinating.</p> Daycruz :

William Dalrymple tries to answer your question about Thomas and Kerala in this article from the Guardian : “The incredible journey :D id St Thomas found a church in south India? William Dalrymple unravels a Christian mystery”

It’s not really important to me if St.T did or did not get to Kerala but the history is fascinating.

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