Comments on: Two-cents worth http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: dogday http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-2/#comment-27461 dogday Mon, 26 Sep 2005 06:38:24 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27461 <p>SM has a number of posts about the wretched state of affairs in the world, so, what's to stop you from creating a donation-link on the site (similar to what you did for bandwidth-fundraising), that you can highlight in every such post? I know it's a drop in the bucket, but it's better than everyone arguing about what is/isn't being done...</p> <p>Maybe take a reader-poll regarding the "most preferred" charities, nonprofits, etc., choose three-four and then take donations and make quarterly or biannual contributions in the name of SM (considering the vigorous response to this post and others, I don't see why people wouldn't give). Or, have SM-supported fundraising-links for other organizations on the site (however, I think doing it yourself lends more power to the posts and discussions).</p> <p>Just a thought.</p> SM has a number of posts about the wretched state of affairs in the world, so, what’s to stop you from creating a donation-link on the site (similar to what you did for bandwidth-fundraising), that you can highlight in every such post? I know it’s a drop in the bucket, but it’s better than everyone arguing about what is/isn’t being done…

Maybe take a reader-poll regarding the “most preferred” charities, nonprofits, etc., choose three-four and then take donations and make quarterly or biannual contributions in the name of SM (considering the vigorous response to this post and others, I don’t see why people wouldn’t give). Or, have SM-supported fundraising-links for other organizations on the site (however, I think doing it yourself lends more power to the posts and discussions).

Just a thought.

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By: Sanjay http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-2/#comment-27453 Sanjay Mon, 26 Sep 2005 04:44:55 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27453 <p>One does not solve the "starvation problem" in India by blindly accepting false reports in foreign newspapers. If this were true, India's starvation problems would have been over many moons ago. All we would have to do is to read all the foreign newspapers in the world and viola!</p> <p>All the real, long lived, tangible changes in india are brought about by those living & working on the inside as members of a given community, not by motivated outsiders.</p> One does not solve the “starvation problem” in India by blindly accepting false reports in foreign newspapers. If this were true, India’s starvation problems would have been over many moons ago. All we would have to do is to read all the foreign newspapers in the world and viola!

All the real, long lived, tangible changes in india are brought about by those living & working on the inside as members of a given community, not by motivated outsiders.

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By: Deepa http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-2/#comment-27449 Deepa Mon, 26 Sep 2005 03:12:03 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27449 <p>I think the issue of "voyeurism" (or better wording) exists, but I think it is not important compared to the possible effects of making suffering known.</p> <p>And I have no doubt Anna has done more than just expressed outrage.</p> <p>There is a defensiveness in some of the comments through this thread, but rather than seeing it in the comments of those who took offense at charging Anna with "voyeurism," I see it in comments like these:</p> <blockquote>There is no point in airing dirty laundry in the West.</blockquote> <blockquote>India Tribune version: "Sania usually never took lunch to school" (i.e. did she receive lunch at school?) BBC version: "Sania normally ate nothing at school" If someone presents just one side of the story without attempting to independently verify it, then it certainly gives the impression that little has been done other than to join the parade. Or just watch it from the sidelines. Your outrage, while unfortunate, is wholly unnecessary. </blockquote> <blockquote>Clearly, this family was going through a particularly tough stretch & Sania simply snapped. Extremely tragic.</blockquote> <p>No point in nitpicking the particular circumstances of the situation or decrying Western coverage of starvation in India since it actually exists as a major problem. This type of argument only serves to assuage the ego of people who feel defensive about the legitimacy/appearance of their country.</p> <p>Theresa above makes a good point about NGO's relying on feelings of sympathy aroused by such articles. I am sure many of us do what we can to help people in many ways.</p> I think the issue of “voyeurism” (or better wording) exists, but I think it is not important compared to the possible effects of making suffering known.

And I have no doubt Anna has done more than just expressed outrage.

There is a defensiveness in some of the comments through this thread, but rather than seeing it in the comments of those who took offense at charging Anna with “voyeurism,” I see it in comments like these:

There is no point in airing dirty laundry in the West.
India Tribune version: “Sania usually never took lunch to school” (i.e. did she receive lunch at school?) BBC version: “Sania normally ate nothing at school” If someone presents just one side of the story without attempting to independently verify it, then it certainly gives the impression that little has been done other than to join the parade. Or just watch it from the sidelines. Your outrage, while unfortunate, is wholly unnecessary.
Clearly, this family was going through a particularly tough stretch & Sania simply snapped. Extremely tragic.

No point in nitpicking the particular circumstances of the situation or decrying Western coverage of starvation in India since it actually exists as a major problem. This type of argument only serves to assuage the ego of people who feel defensive about the legitimacy/appearance of their country.

Theresa above makes a good point about NGO’s relying on feelings of sympathy aroused by such articles. I am sure many of us do what we can to help people in many ways.

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By: O'Ya Bula Bula Bi http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-2/#comment-27444 O'Ya Bula Bula Bi Mon, 26 Sep 2005 01:14:34 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27444 <blockquote>Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion ?</blockquote> <p>Data for India is hard to find and you will have to go by what you undersand of the country, such as observing number of institutions etc. which run on endowment. For the USA - about <a href="http://www.aafrc.org/gusa/GUSA05_Press_Release.pdf">$250</a> billion was given as charitable contributions in 2004. And <a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908778.html">75%</a> of it was given by individuals. And note that this is after the compartively higher taxes (including SS and medicare)paid in the USA.</p> Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion ?

Data for India is hard to find and you will have to go by what you undersand of the country, such as observing number of institutions etc. which run on endowment. For the USA – about $250 billion was given as charitable contributions in 2004. And 75% of it was given by individuals. And note that this is after the compartively higher taxes (including SS and medicare)paid in the USA.

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By: theresa http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-2/#comment-27440 theresa Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:40:39 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27440 <p>"Transparency is key to progress."</p> <p>i agree.</p> <p>it's not "dirty laundry" if it's true, and it deserves to be told.</p> <p>re: indians giving back. i agree with epoch, i think that the support system for elderly and young people are compromised in many parts of india, therefore middle-class families expend a lot of that "extra money" on supporting family members who can't support themselves. even though they have a sense of civic-ness and would give if they could, it's simply not within reach.</p> <p>of course, this excludes the super rich who seem happier to donate to PETA than to real live humans, while i was working in lucknow i had a good friend who would never, ever help out at the project i worked on (involving children's nutrition programs) and instead would spend thousands of rupees feeding cows in a lane by her house. i am also shocked at times in bombay and delhi when i go to fundraisers for HIV/AIDS programs and see a 80% foreigner attendance, and then i go to a fashion show for PETA and it's packed to the rafters with young hip indians. people are giving money, but the question is to what... maybe people here can help me, how do we get people to think that giving to people is "cool" or "trendy"? i know that getting celebrities involved in america was crucial, but what about india?</p> <p>sumita said: "but sometimes its better to let nations help themselves rather than "resuce them""</p> <p>yes, but when the knowledge of how to do that "helping" especially in regards to health care has been largely guarded by the elite in the world then it's up to those with the knowledge to bring it... i'm sorry but no one is pioneering HIV/AIDS work in India, yet they are in parts of europe and america, so bringing that knowledge in can do a helluva lot for india, africa, china and other places ravaged by HIV epidemics.</p> <p>some things to think about.</p> <p>theresa</p> “Transparency is key to progress.”

i agree.

it’s not “dirty laundry” if it’s true, and it deserves to be told.

re: indians giving back. i agree with epoch, i think that the support system for elderly and young people are compromised in many parts of india, therefore middle-class families expend a lot of that “extra money” on supporting family members who can’t support themselves. even though they have a sense of civic-ness and would give if they could, it’s simply not within reach.

of course, this excludes the super rich who seem happier to donate to PETA than to real live humans, while i was working in lucknow i had a good friend who would never, ever help out at the project i worked on (involving children’s nutrition programs) and instead would spend thousands of rupees feeding cows in a lane by her house. i am also shocked at times in bombay and delhi when i go to fundraisers for HIV/AIDS programs and see a 80% foreigner attendance, and then i go to a fashion show for PETA and it’s packed to the rafters with young hip indians. people are giving money, but the question is to what… maybe people here can help me, how do we get people to think that giving to people is “cool” or “trendy”? i know that getting celebrities involved in america was crucial, but what about india?

sumita said: “but sometimes its better to let nations help themselves rather than “resuce them”"

yes, but when the knowledge of how to do that “helping” especially in regards to health care has been largely guarded by the elite in the world then it’s up to those with the knowledge to bring it… i’m sorry but no one is pioneering HIV/AIDS work in India, yet they are in parts of europe and america, so bringing that knowledge in can do a helluva lot for india, africa, china and other places ravaged by HIV epidemics.

some things to think about.

theresa

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By: Kush Tandon http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-2/#comment-27435 Kush Tandon Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:13:53 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27435 <p>"DV is illegal. Poverty is not."</p> <p>There is no glamor in poverty - a lot of violence, domestic or not comes through poverty (not always, and has cultural factors too).</p> <p>Sweeping a problem under the rug is the worst disservice one can do. Therefore, I never complain about a story if its done with careful research. General Musharraf does, though.</p> <p>Transparency is key to progress.</p> “DV is illegal. Poverty is not.”

There is no glamor in poverty – a lot of violence, domestic or not comes through poverty (not always, and has cultural factors too).

Sweeping a problem under the rug is the worst disservice one can do. Therefore, I never complain about a story if its done with careful research. General Musharraf does, though.

Transparency is key to progress.

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By: epoch http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-2/#comment-27434 epoch Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:03:51 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27434 <blockquote>Yes forget the poor, and lets look only at the rich and/or the upper middle class. Do it on a percentage of income/wealth basis? People in India jsut don't give back to society as much as they should.</blockquote> <p>Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion ?</p> <p>Comparisons should be done on basis percentage of after-tax income that is not used for necessities like food, water, shelter etc.</p> <p>Also you have to include any financial support that the income earners provide to their elderly parents and extended family.</p> Yes forget the poor, and lets look only at the rich and/or the upper middle class. Do it on a percentage of income/wealth basis? People in India jsut don’t give back to society as much as they should.

Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion ?

Comparisons should be done on basis percentage of after-tax income that is not used for necessities like food, water, shelter etc.

Also you have to include any financial support that the income earners provide to their elderly parents and extended family.

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By: MoorNam http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-2/#comment-27429 MoorNam Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:44:07 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27429 <p>Communis R writes:</p> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p><I>Yes. Let's circle the wagons, lest people see the truth, that we're not all rich, sane and perfect. This is the same bullshit attitude that keeps domestic violence victims living with their abusers, as they are pressured to "not air dirty laundry". "What will people think?!" What will they think, indeed.</I></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <p>Oh good. You threw the domestic violence angle in. Now let's just add Hitler, Nazi, caste and we will have a nice stew to boil me in.</p> <p>Sorry - how is DV even remotely similiar to the case in hand? DV is illegal. Poverty is not. DV has a particular perpetrator - poverty cannot be pointed to a single source. Complaining about DV to the cops actually yields results. The BBC airing these "stories" in their paper yields...?</p> <blockquote> <blockquote> <p><I>Here's a ladder for you and all your deluded brethren-- now get over yourselves. India is powerful enough that it can stand multiple views of its reality. I might have listened to your point twenty years ago, but today, it's just ridiculous.</I></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <p>You forgot my deluded sisters... but never mind.</p> <p>India is powerful enough as a whole, but these stories appearing at the wrong time can give CM of Bengal a red-face when he is having a presentation in Boston on investment opportunities in Bengal. And this was true twenty years ago, is true today, and will be true twenty years from now.</p> <p>M. Nam</p> Communis R writes:

Yes. Let’s circle the wagons, lest people see the truth, that we’re not all rich, sane and perfect. This is the same bullshit attitude that keeps domestic violence victims living with their abusers, as they are pressured to “not air dirty laundry”. “What will people think?!” What will they think, indeed.

Oh good. You threw the domestic violence angle in. Now let’s just add Hitler, Nazi, caste and we will have a nice stew to boil me in.

Sorry – how is DV even remotely similiar to the case in hand? DV is illegal. Poverty is not. DV has a particular perpetrator – poverty cannot be pointed to a single source. Complaining about DV to the cops actually yields results. The BBC airing these “stories” in their paper yields…?

Here’s a ladder for you and all your deluded brethren– now get over yourselves. India is powerful enough that it can stand multiple views of its reality. I might have listened to your point twenty years ago, but today, it’s just ridiculous.

You forgot my deluded sisters… but never mind.

India is powerful enough as a whole, but these stories appearing at the wrong time can give CM of Bengal a red-face when he is having a presentation in Boston on investment opportunities in Bengal. And this was true twenty years ago, is true today, and will be true twenty years from now.

M. Nam

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By: sumita http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-1/#comment-27428 sumita Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:58:41 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27428 <p>Anna</p> <p>Thank you for your very valid question.I respect your asking it the way you have.</p> <p>I addressed my questions to you as I felt you would share my questions.</p> <p>You would be insulted only if those questions were not yours when you wrote the blog.</p> <p>My hope is that folks here are of a greater sensitivity than the environment of "always being entertaining" allows. That burden is not just yours, but any writers's who has to always choose between sensational and serious treatment of a deep issue.</p> <p>Sometimes that line is blurry( and we all fail to see it on some occasion or the other)</p> <p>Criticism takes a lot more effort than "oh this is wonderful" It is in some ways a form of appreciation too. Maybe not sweet.</p> <p>To be able to enagage postively and debate and analyse things helps all of us, you and me both.</p> <p>Would you rather everyone say, "of great!" and agree all the time?and not really care for any of this except as <i>time pass</i>.</p> <p>Please recognise that for me to write a serious response is my way of showing a blogger the highest respect. If I really did blame/condemn, I wouldnt waste a single breath/word. There is nothing I personally gain by saying nasty things either, and I hope you see that too.</p> <p>Sumita</p> <p>Can we say peace now? And find ways to seek common ground?</p> Anna

Thank you for your very valid question.I respect your asking it the way you have.

I addressed my questions to you as I felt you would share my questions.

You would be insulted only if those questions were not yours when you wrote the blog.

My hope is that folks here are of a greater sensitivity than the environment of “always being entertaining” allows. That burden is not just yours, but any writers’s who has to always choose between sensational and serious treatment of a deep issue.

Sometimes that line is blurry( and we all fail to see it on some occasion or the other)

Criticism takes a lot more effort than “oh this is wonderful” It is in some ways a form of appreciation too. Maybe not sweet.

To be able to enagage postively and debate and analyse things helps all of us, you and me both.

Would you rather everyone say, “of great!” and agree all the time?and not really care for any of this except as time pass.

Please recognise that for me to write a serious response is my way of showing a blogger the highest respect. If I really did blame/condemn, I wouldnt waste a single breath/word. There is nothing I personally gain by saying nasty things either, and I hope you see that too.

Sumita

Can we say peace now? And find ways to seek common ground?

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By: dhaavak http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/09/24/twocents_worth_1/comment-page-1/#comment-27427 dhaavak Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:45:20 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=2275#comment-27427 <blockquote>India is powerful enough that it can stand multiple views of its reality. </blockquote> <p>good words... coincidentally... beloved came to me a little while back upset about what she'd just read in 'the good women of china' by xinran... apparently in 1976, 300,000 people died in an earthquake in a remote chinese province and it took 14 days for beijing to hear about it... and only because some foreign govt intervened... the official channels of course glossed over it.</p> India is powerful enough that it can stand multiple views of its reality.

good words… coincidentally… beloved came to me a little while back upset about what she’d just read in ‘the good women of china’ by xinran… apparently in 1976, 300,000 people died in an earthquake in a remote chinese province and it took 14 days for beijing to hear about it… and only because some foreign govt intervened… the official channels of course glossed over it.

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