Comments on: Babbar Khalsa International “Roundup” http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Administrator http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-29576 Administrator Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:54:00 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-29576 <p>The Sikh Coalition points out confessions may be coerced.</p> <p>--</p> <p>I sent a message to SM requesting that they post news about this report by ENSAAF: http://www.ensaaf.org/ft-report.html. It directly contradicts the disturbing assertions of fact that Prof. Amardeep Singh (who unfortunately has the same name as me) made in the following post: http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001893.html.</p> <p>As someone who has researched and worked with the victims of state violence in Punjab, I was deeply disappointed that Prof. Singh had a stage from which to make assertions of fact (in this case that Sikhs had engaged in terrorism) that: a) came from the most dubious of sources; and b) have the effect of defaming a substantial portion of the brown community.</p> <p>As I wrote to the folks at the newstips address, I truly enjoy SMÂ’s posts about neat events and also the occasional exchange of ideas on matters of substance. I think however that SM posters should tread carefully when making statements of fact that come from dubious sources and alienate segments of our community.</p> <p>IÂ’m not sure SMÂ’s posters understand how raw the wounds remain from the worst periods of torture in Punjab (note I write “worst periods” because torture still remains as ENSAAFÂ’s report chronicles). Perhaps the period of protest and effigy burning in Delhi this summer can give you some insight into the pain that still exists. Unlike the suffering of the victims of the Delhi pogroms in 1984, the torture meted out to the rural victims of state violence in Punjab has not been acknowledged by any substantial segment of the Indian community. Most of India and the Indian elite consider those tens of thousands of victims to be either terrorists or terrorist supporters who got what they deserved. Their families, already brutalized beyond comprehension, live as pariahs. The police who engaged in the torture of their family memberÂ’s are hailed as national heroes.</p> <p>The news of the human rights report that I request SM post, is another in a now voluminous number of reports that demonstrate that the assertions of fact that come from people like Prof. Singh are all too often fabricated while the victim endures electric shock to genitals or endures watching the torture of a loved one. These confession of “terrorism” are confessions at the point of the gun. What disturbs me is that Professor Singh could so flippantly and lightly endorse the Punjab PoliceÂ’s story (for example - “All of the people arrested in the past few weeks seem to be talking to police — often openly confessing their crimes — and their videotaped interrogations are being shown to reporters. Moreover, theyÂ’ve written down the names of all their collaborators in handy little notebooks”) when he should know better.</p> <p>I was disturbed that Prof. Singh had a forum from which to make assertions of fact that are so ignorant of these realities. The fact that he is a Sikh who wholeheartedly bought the government line, likely gave those who responded to his post the wherewithal to engage in the disturbing gang mentality condemnation of the supposed terrorists who ENSAAFÂ’s report demonstrates are often innocent victims of politicized torture.</p> <p>In the future, I would again request that SMÂ’s leaders/posters tread carefully before making assertions of fact that come from dubious sources and have the effect of defaming and alienating a substantial segment of the brown community.</p> <p>Amar</p> <hr /> <p>Amardeep Singh Legal Director The Sikh Coalition 396 Broadway, Suite 701 New York, New York 10013</p> The Sikh Coalition points out confessions may be coerced.

I sent a message to SM requesting that they post news about this report by ENSAAF: http://www.ensaaf.org/ft-report.html. It directly contradicts the disturbing assertions of fact that Prof. Amardeep Singh (who unfortunately has the same name as me) made in the following post: http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001893.html.

As someone who has researched and worked with the victims of state violence in Punjab, I was deeply disappointed that Prof. Singh had a stage from which to make assertions of fact (in this case that Sikhs had engaged in terrorism) that: a) came from the most dubious of sources; and b) have the effect of defaming a substantial portion of the brown community.

As I wrote to the folks at the newstips address, I truly enjoy SMÂ’s posts about neat events and also the occasional exchange of ideas on matters of substance. I think however that SM posters should tread carefully when making statements of fact that come from dubious sources and alienate segments of our community.

I’m not sure SM’s posters understand how raw the wounds remain from the worst periods of torture in Punjab (note I write “worst periods” because torture still remains as ENSAAF’s report chronicles). Perhaps the period of protest and effigy burning in Delhi this summer can give you some insight into the pain that still exists. Unlike the suffering of the victims of the Delhi pogroms in 1984, the torture meted out to the rural victims of state violence in Punjab has not been acknowledged by any substantial segment of the Indian community. Most of India and the Indian elite consider those tens of thousands of victims to be either terrorists or terrorist supporters who got what they deserved. Their families, already brutalized beyond comprehension, live as pariahs. The police who engaged in the torture of their family member’s are hailed as national heroes.

The news of the human rights report that I request SM post, is another in a now voluminous number of reports that demonstrate that the assertions of fact that come from people like Prof. Singh are all too often fabricated while the victim endures electric shock to genitals or endures watching the torture of a loved one. These confession of “terrorism” are confessions at the point of the gun. What disturbs me is that Professor Singh could so flippantly and lightly endorse the Punjab PoliceÂ’s story (for example – “All of the people arrested in the past few weeks seem to be talking to police — often openly confessing their crimes — and their videotaped interrogations are being shown to reporters. Moreover, theyÂ’ve written down the names of all their collaborators in handy little notebooks”) when he should know better.

I was disturbed that Prof. Singh had a forum from which to make assertions of fact that are so ignorant of these realities. The fact that he is a Sikh who wholeheartedly bought the government line, likely gave those who responded to his post the wherewithal to engage in the disturbing gang mentality condemnation of the supposed terrorists who ENSAAFÂ’s report demonstrates are often innocent victims of politicized torture.

In the future, I would again request that SMÂ’s leaders/posters tread carefully before making assertions of fact that come from dubious sources and have the effect of defaming and alienating a substantial segment of the brown community.

Amar


Amardeep Singh Legal Director The Sikh Coalition 396 Broadway, Suite 701 New York, New York 10013

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By: Singh http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-18138 Singh Sat, 30 Jul 2005 22:46:48 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-18138 <p>To open-minded people : here's the article with ONLY facts to read on: http://pr.sikhsangat.com/</p> To open-minded people : here’s the article with ONLY facts to read on: http://pr.sikhsangat.com/

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By: kumar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-17842 kumar Wed, 27 Jul 2005 23:16:43 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-17842 <p>Dr. Singh:</p> <p>Thanks for the reply. I'll check out the link you mentioned.</p> <p>Kumar</p> Dr. Singh:

Thanks for the reply. I’ll check out the link you mentioned.

Kumar

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By: Amardeep http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-17802 Amardeep Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:40:22 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-17802 <p>Kumar,</p> <p>Sorry for the delayed response -- actually I don't know the answer to your question.</p> <p>Nowadays I rarely see any of the people I used to know with those kinds of views, and I frankly haven't kept up with their take on what's happening in Kashmir. You might try the <a href="http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Sikh_Bloggers">Sikh Bloggers</a> list at SikhWiki. There are some interesting voices there, though obviously I don't endorse the views etc etc.</p> Kumar,

Sorry for the delayed response — actually I don’t know the answer to your question.

Nowadays I rarely see any of the people I used to know with those kinds of views, and I frankly haven’t kept up with their take on what’s happening in Kashmir. You might try the Sikh Bloggers list at SikhWiki. There are some interesting voices there, though obviously I don’t endorse the views etc etc.

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By: kumar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-17792 kumar Wed, 27 Jul 2005 21:13:26 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-17792 <p>raju:</p> <p>"...its not up to you to let sikhs know what they went through in the 80's..."</p> <p>Hey, here's a novel idea for you to mull. Read before you post: I've not written anything about how Sikhs should or shouldn't feel. My post related a Khalistani view that I found worrisome, so I asked Dr. Singh how popular it is among the Khalistanis and Sikhs in general. You know, I "...ask[ed]..." in the hope that he would "...have plenty to say...".</p> <p>You're not suggesting, surely, that only Sikhs have the right to opinions about the conduct of the GOI during the counter-insurgency, do you? Or, only Sikhs have the right to an opinion about Kashmir (&Punjab)?</p> <p>That's a manifestly absurd view, with anti-democratic implications, one I'd like to see you justify. By this sort of 'logic' only I, a Kashmiri Pandit, had the right to express an opinion on Kashmir in my argument with that 2nd gen. diaspora Khalistani twit.</p> <p>Oh, btw, expressing an opinion on such matters doesn't mean necessarily abandoning empathy for someone who may not agree with that opinon.</p> <p>Kumar</p> raju:

“…its not up to you to let sikhs know what they went through in the 80′s…”

Hey, here’s a novel idea for you to mull. Read before you post: I’ve not written anything about how Sikhs should or shouldn’t feel. My post related a Khalistani view that I found worrisome, so I asked Dr. Singh how popular it is among the Khalistanis and Sikhs in general. You know, I “…ask[ed]…” in the hope that he would “…have plenty to say…”.

You’re not suggesting, surely, that only Sikhs have the right to opinions about the conduct of the GOI during the counter-insurgency, do you? Or, only Sikhs have the right to an opinion about Kashmir (&Punjab)?

That’s a manifestly absurd view, with anti-democratic implications, one I’d like to see you justify. By this sort of ‘logic’ only I, a Kashmiri Pandit, had the right to express an opinion on Kashmir in my argument with that 2nd gen. diaspora Khalistani twit.

Oh, btw, expressing an opinion on such matters doesn’t mean necessarily abandoning empathy for someone who may not agree with that opinon.

Kumar

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By: Lovin http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-17707 Lovin Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:49:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-17707 <p><i>a sikh can be against khalistan but i doubt many could be for the repression of the 80's. it was a black mark in indian history, no ifs ands or buts. </i></p> <p>agreed, that was really sad and I remember even as a 9 yr old kid that I couldn't believe what was going on. I hope that never happens again.</p> a sikh can be against khalistan but i doubt many could be for the repression of the 80′s. it was a black mark in indian history, no ifs ands or buts.

agreed, that was really sad and I remember even as a 9 yr old kid that I couldn’t believe what was going on. I hope that never happens again.

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By: raju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-17701 raju Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:37:38 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-17701 <p>Kumar,</p> <p>its not up to you to let sikhs know what they went through in the 80's. ask them and many will have plenty to say</p> Kumar,

its not up to you to let sikhs know what they went through in the 80′s. ask them and many will have plenty to say

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By: Kumar http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-17684 Kumar Wed, 27 Jul 2005 07:38:26 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-17684 <p>Dr. Singh:</p> <p>An anecdote and a question.</p> <p>At my university recently, I got into a bit of an argument with a Khalistani Sardar--a resident at the hospital affiliated with the university's medical school--over his rather vocal championing of Kashmiri Muslim secessionists. Indeed, his car sports a prominent sticker w/ an Indian map absent J&K and Punjab.</p> <p>What is the extent of support for Kashmiri Muslim secession among Khalistanis in particular ? And among the general Sikh population here (America) ?</p> <p>sonia:</p> <p>lovin overdoes his praise for India, to be sure. And Operation Bluestar ought not to have happened--it was a mistake, morally and military. But I don't think it can underwrite an inference to systematic malice towards Sikhs on the part of the Govt. For all its many faults, India is recognizably democratic.</p> <p>As for Amnesty et al., well I think it long ago ditched its admirable non-political mission to highlight human rights abuses everywhere, without favor to one or another side. Certainly its coverage on J&K--something I regrettably know a lot about--is disgraceful. I find its selective outrage nauseous. Given this politicization, I think GOI's stance on allowing Amnesty to visit various places is quite defensible.</p> <p>And those who are fans of Amnesty et al., please spare me citation of 'CYA' reports/quotes to 'prove' that Amnesty et al. are impartial chroniclers of human rights abuse. The acid test is to see which sorts of rights abuses, against whom, etc. which are relentlessly spotlighted by these organizations.</p> <p>Kumar</p> Dr. Singh:

An anecdote and a question.

At my university recently, I got into a bit of an argument with a Khalistani Sardar–a resident at the hospital affiliated with the university’s medical school–over his rather vocal championing of Kashmiri Muslim secessionists. Indeed, his car sports a prominent sticker w/ an Indian map absent J&K and Punjab.

What is the extent of support for Kashmiri Muslim secession among Khalistanis in particular ? And among the general Sikh population here (America) ?

sonia:

lovin overdoes his praise for India, to be sure. And Operation Bluestar ought not to have happened–it was a mistake, morally and military. But I don’t think it can underwrite an inference to systematic malice towards Sikhs on the part of the Govt. For all its many faults, India is recognizably democratic.

As for Amnesty et al., well I think it long ago ditched its admirable non-political mission to highlight human rights abuses everywhere, without favor to one or another side. Certainly its coverage on J&K–something I regrettably know a lot about–is disgraceful. I find its selective outrage nauseous. Given this politicization, I think GOI’s stance on allowing Amnesty to visit various places is quite defensible.

And those who are fans of Amnesty et al., please spare me citation of ‘CYA’ reports/quotes to ‘prove’ that Amnesty et al. are impartial chroniclers of human rights abuse. The acid test is to see which sorts of rights abuses, against whom, etc. which are relentlessly spotlighted by these organizations.

Kumar

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By: Sonia http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-17680 Sonia Wed, 27 Jul 2005 05:29:52 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-17680 <blockquote>I never understood why sikhs were upset about operation bluestar</blockquote> <p>Are you serious? Are you really f***ing serious? <br /><br />I didn't know sanctity could be restored by destroying sacred scriptures and killing innocent Sikhs. If India was really so "holy," Amnesty International would be allowed in to share India's "holiness" with the world.</p> I never understood why sikhs were upset about operation bluestar

Are you serious? Are you really f***ing serious?

I didn’t know sanctity could be restored by destroying sacred scriptures and killing innocent Sikhs. If India was really so “holy,” Amnesty International would be allowed in to share India’s “holiness” with the world.

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By: raju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/26/babbar_khalsa_i/comment-page-1/#comment-17670 raju Wed, 27 Jul 2005 04:17:46 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1893#comment-17670 <p>however, views like sidharths will never get play in our community.</p> <p>one; bhinderwale never asked anyone before he went into the Golden Temple. almost all sikhs had no say in that. two, indira gandhi created binderwale in the first place. three, no matter what, Operation Blue Star was obscene. four, the dehli riots and the subsequent discrimination against Sikhs was a true black mark on indian history. a gross violation of the rights of Sikhs from pillar to post. no one was spared.</p> <p>a sikh can be against khalistan but i doubt many could be for the repression of the 80's. it was a black mark in indian history, no ifs ands or buts.</p> however, views like sidharths will never get play in our community.

one; bhinderwale never asked anyone before he went into the Golden Temple. almost all sikhs had no say in that. two, indira gandhi created binderwale in the first place. three, no matter what, Operation Blue Star was obscene. four, the dehli riots and the subsequent discrimination against Sikhs was a true black mark on indian history. a gross violation of the rights of Sikhs from pillar to post. no one was spared.

a sikh can be against khalistan but i doubt many could be for the repression of the 80′s. it was a black mark in indian history, no ifs ands or buts.

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