Comments on: The cult of the “strong man” http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: hammer_sickel http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17579 hammer_sickel Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:33:06 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17579 <blockquote>An argument based on any article by Francois Gautier is hardly non-partisan. </blockquote> <p>That is exactly the point - it is meant to tell the "other part" of the story. And that doesnt mean it is wrong.</p> <p>Try refuting claims made in the article (btw, it has very little reference to Francois) with counter arguments rather than about the author.</p> <p>And Saurav, it will be an injustice to you, not to call you a comrade. Just by reading a few of your comments, one can figure out you have a soft corner towards ultra-left desis - descendants of WB/Kerala communists. You try to put Indian politics in American context (right-left).</p> <p>Once you publicly renounce your communist kinship, I shall disrobe you off Red!</p> An argument based on any article by Francois Gautier is hardly non-partisan.

That is exactly the point – it is meant to tell the “other part” of the story. And that doesnt mean it is wrong.

Try refuting claims made in the article (btw, it has very little reference to Francois) with counter arguments rather than about the author.

And Saurav, it will be an injustice to you, not to call you a comrade. Just by reading a few of your comments, one can figure out you have a soft corner towards ultra-left desis – descendants of WB/Kerala communists. You try to put Indian politics in American context (right-left).

Once you publicly renounce your communist kinship, I shall disrobe you off Red!

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By: Saurav http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17467 Saurav Tue, 26 Jul 2005 09:10:37 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17467 <blockquote>Why do Saurav and likens have links/documents to Gujarat textbooks and find no reference and objections to WB texts? Salute to these Comrades!</blockquote> <p>Do you never tire of red-baiting me? It's like it's a fulltime job or something for you :) In any case, I'm glad you're back. I find you very cute, in your own way. From a safe distance, of course.</p> Why do Saurav and likens have links/documents to Gujarat textbooks and find no reference and objections to WB texts? Salute to these Comrades!

Do you never tire of red-baiting me? It’s like it’s a fulltime job or something for you :) In any case, I’m glad you’re back. I find you very cute, in your own way. From a safe distance, of course.

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By: epoch http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17463 epoch Tue, 26 Jul 2005 08:11:22 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17463 <p>Yo whateva happened to da pan-subcontinentalist spirit on the south asian mutiny.</p> <p>Why focus on Gujarat or India when the manipulation of history texts is clearly a South Asian phenomenon from <a href="http://www.thesouthasian.org/archives/000229.html">Pakistan</a> to <a href="http://www.blog.com.np/index.php?p=609">Nepal</a>; <a href="http://www.observerindia.com/publications/monograph/indminds.pdf">Bangladesh</a> to <a href="http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTCEERD/Resources/EDUCpetercolenso.pdf">Sri Lanka</a>, the manipulation of history by various Minsitries of Truth is truely a common bond that unites desis.</p> Yo whateva happened to da pan-subcontinentalist spirit on the south asian mutiny.

Why focus on Gujarat or India when the manipulation of history texts is clearly a South Asian phenomenon from Pakistan to Nepal; Bangladesh to Sri Lanka, the manipulation of history by various Minsitries of Truth is truely a common bond that unites desis.

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By: expatblorean http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17392 expatblorean Tue, 26 Jul 2005 00:35:28 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17392 <blockquote>"Lies, Lies and more Lies" should open your eyes!!</blockquote> <p>I don't think so, hammer_sickel. An argument based on any article by Francois Gautier is hardly non-partisan. This guy Gautier is like, the best thing that has ever happened to the Hindu right - a <i>gora</i> with a Christian Name, talking up a case for killing all Muslims/Christians. This guy's writings feature prominently in websites run by VHP and other Hindu fundamentalists. Actually, the dude is just hilarious - his work include fantastic vsions of Hindutva grandeur He takes exception to everything from India having a Muslim president to Columbus being credited with the discovery of America. ( I once read a side-splitting analysis of his which concluded that Incas and Aztecs were, actually, descendants of expert <i>desi </i> seafarers. Can't find the link now. )Methinks he's a kook who got too much bhang and "Indian Spirituality" in his sytem at some hippie rave in Goa in the 70s. Google Francois Gautier, and judge for yourselves.</p> “Lies, Lies and more Lies” should open your eyes!!

I don’t think so, hammer_sickel. An argument based on any article by Francois Gautier is hardly non-partisan. This guy Gautier is like, the best thing that has ever happened to the Hindu right – a gora with a Christian Name, talking up a case for killing all Muslims/Christians. This guy’s writings feature prominently in websites run by VHP and other Hindu fundamentalists. Actually, the dude is just hilarious – his work include fantastic vsions of Hindutva grandeur He takes exception to everything from India having a Muslim president to Columbus being credited with the discovery of America. ( I once read a side-splitting analysis of his which concluded that Incas and Aztecs were, actually, descendants of expert desi seafarers. Can’t find the link now. )Methinks he’s a kook who got too much bhang and “Indian Spirituality” in his sytem at some hippie rave in Goa in the 70s. Google Francois Gautier, and judge for yourselves.

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By: hammer_sickel http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17321 hammer_sickel Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:34:57 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17321 <p>On the link that was given by "anom" about the <a href="http://www.indcast.com/gujtexts/">so-called offensive chapter</a>, we are missing the fine details - the book was first printed in 1993 and till date has not been changed much.</p> <blockquote>Hitler is praised, and the current government of Gujarat sees nothing wrong with that.</blockquote> <p>Poor logic you have, Ennis. Nobody, not even Congress, has any problems with it but Father Cedrik Prakash and other BJP-baiters.</p> <p>All those protesting here should also protest against the glorification of Stalin in West Bengal education - not a word has been said against which proves their communist kinship. Why do Saurav and likens have links/documents to Gujarat textbooks and find no reference and objections to WB texts? Salute to these Comrades!</p> <p>"<a href="http://www.sulekha.com/articledesc.asp?cid=290065">Lies, Lies and more Lies</a>" should open your eyes!!</p> <p>Also read <a href="http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=423798">this</a> to look through the concerted efforts of Indian left to demonize the Right (not political).</p> On the link that was given by “anom” about the so-called offensive chapter, we are missing the fine details – the book was first printed in 1993 and till date has not been changed much.

Hitler is praised, and the current government of Gujarat sees nothing wrong with that.

Poor logic you have, Ennis. Nobody, not even Congress, has any problems with it but Father Cedrik Prakash and other BJP-baiters.

All those protesting here should also protest against the glorification of Stalin in West Bengal education – not a word has been said against which proves their communist kinship. Why do Saurav and likens have links/documents to Gujarat textbooks and find no reference and objections to WB texts? Salute to these Comrades!

Lies, Lies and more Lies” should open your eyes!!

Also read this to look through the concerted efforts of Indian left to demonize the Right (not political).

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By: MoorNam http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17315 MoorNam Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:49:15 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17315 <p>Ennis writes:>><I>Hitler is praised, and the current government of Gujarat sees nothing wrong with that.</I></p> <p>Well, Stalin and Mao are praised, and the current government of WestBengal sees nothing wrong with that.</p> <p>Madrassas in India praise many despotic muslim rulers, and nobody sees anything wrong with that.</p> <p>Wherever you see government involved in education and writing of books, you will see bias. To solve the problem once and for all, you will need to privatise education. If praising Hitler gains more market share, those schools with make more profits. If praising Britney Spears yields more results, schools will adopt that.</p> <p>Moreover, history books are such a moot point in these days of the internet, where, for every event "printed" in those books, there will be a hundred websites that counter that information. For eg: Most Indian history books talk about Aryan Invasion Theory, whereas it has been debated and debunked elsewhere on many popular websites.</p> <p>M. Nam</p> Ennis writes:>>Hitler is praised, and the current government of Gujarat sees nothing wrong with that.

Well, Stalin and Mao are praised, and the current government of WestBengal sees nothing wrong with that.

Madrassas in India praise many despotic muslim rulers, and nobody sees anything wrong with that.

Wherever you see government involved in education and writing of books, you will see bias. To solve the problem once and for all, you will need to privatise education. If praising Hitler gains more market share, those schools with make more profits. If praising Britney Spears yields more results, schools will adopt that.

Moreover, history books are such a moot point in these days of the internet, where, for every event “printed” in those books, there will be a hundred websites that counter that information. For eg: Most Indian history books talk about Aryan Invasion Theory, whereas it has been debated and debunked elsewhere on many popular websites.

M. Nam

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By: Ennis http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17288 Ennis Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:59:59 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17288 <p>Arun, if you look at the phrasing of the post, I don't take a position on why the history books praise Hitler, I just point out that they were re-issued. Whether the pro-Hitler treatment of history came from the BJP or was in there before, the point remains the same. Hitler is praised, and the current government of Gujarat sees nothing wrong with that.</p> Arun, if you look at the phrasing of the post, I don’t take a position on why the history books praise Hitler, I just point out that they were re-issued. Whether the pro-Hitler treatment of history came from the BJP or was in there before, the point remains the same. Hitler is praised, and the current government of Gujarat sees nothing wrong with that.

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By: observer http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17281 observer Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:40:45 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17281 <p>isn't it interesting how the standard left and right positions are reversed in india.</p> <p>usually the american right-winger will think "uk good,muslims disproportionately terrorists, left bad". the american left winger will think "uk = bush's poodle, muslims misunderstood, right bad".</p> <p>the indian right, the bjp, will think "uk BAD", but share the other two parts of the american right. weird. i guess it's consistent from a position of nationalism.</p> isn’t it interesting how the standard left and right positions are reversed in india.

usually the american right-winger will think “uk good,muslims disproportionately terrorists, left bad”. the american left winger will think “uk = bush’s poodle, muslims misunderstood, right bad”.

the indian right, the bjp, will think “uk BAD”, but share the other two parts of the american right. weird. i guess it’s consistent from a position of nationalism.

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By: manju http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17277 manju Mon, 25 Jul 2005 09:00:37 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17277 <p><i>I didnÂ’t have to associate masculinity with ruthlessness. I wonder how much longer I will be able to live in this bubble, or if it has already popped.</i></p> <pre><code> Sometimes I wonder success in educational and economic sphere will ever offset the perceived inadequacy in the physical courage. The one reason I dislike RSS strongly is for their slogan "Hindu is no longer a coward". Perhaps if you do the objective study of Indian history you can see Hindu(I suppose people of the subcontinent who were not muslims) was never a coward. I would say , more than muslim assertion of their dominance over Hindus it's the self acceptance of torch bearers of Hindutva of our ancestors cowardice that has left many Hindus confused and unclear about their masculinity. I think this has lead to the developments in Gujarat. However, I suppose muslim men are the worst victims of machismo. And non-muslims are many a times innocent victims in their quest for ultimate bravery. Otherday, I was playing Table Tennis with my muslim colleague. We were in a pathetic position, however, we fought back came to the winning position. My colleague(belonging to educationally and financially successful muslim family) remarked "Oh! we fought like Pakistanis". In another match we went down tamely. This time we were Bangladeshis. No wonder, Bangladeshi muslims want to be Pakistanis. And why Pakistan will find it difficult to unshackle its perceived macho Islamic image. </code></pre> I didnÂ’t have to associate masculinity with ruthlessness. I wonder how much longer I will be able to live in this bubble, or if it has already popped.

     Sometimes I wonder success in educational and economic sphere will ever offset the perceived inadequacy in the physical courage.
                 The one reason I dislike RSS strongly is for their slogan "Hindu is no longer a coward".  Perhaps if you do the objective study of Indian history you can see Hindu(I suppose people of the subcontinent who were not muslims) was never a coward. I would say , more than muslim  assertion of their dominance over Hindus it's the self acceptance of torch bearers of Hindutva of our ancestors cowardice that has left many Hindus confused and unclear about their masculinity. I think this has lead to the developments in Gujarat. 
                           However, I suppose muslim men are the worst victims of machismo. And non-muslims are many a times innocent victims in their quest for ultimate bravery. Otherday, I was playing Table Tennis with my muslim colleague. We were in a pathetic position, however, we fought back came to the winning position. My colleague(belonging to educationally and financially successful muslim family) remarked "Oh! we fought like Pakistanis". In another match we went down tamely. This time we were Bangladeshis. No wonder, Bangladeshi muslims want to be Pakistanis. And why Pakistan will find it difficult to unshackle its perceived macho Islamic image. 
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By: GujuDude http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/24/the_cult_of_the/comment-page-1/#comment-17264 GujuDude Mon, 25 Jul 2005 06:23:28 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1890#comment-17264 <blockquote>Ends cannot justify means. Going back to my analogy, you should be able to celebrate the kid born out of rape without having to give 'credit' to the rapist or the rape.</blockquote> <p>Ok, I see what you are saying. I agree, ends do not justify the means. But this is all being discussed in hindsight where all one can really do is learn lessons, take what works, and move on.</p> <p>But is it really the kid's fault that it was born out of a crime? But the truth remains, the kid was a result of the crime. That is an objective fact. No one has to like it, but it is a fact that no one can change. This analogy is too simplistic and doesn't do justice to the complicated nature and relationship Indians had with the British during colonial rule.</p> <p>Indians learned a few things that were useful, learned a few things that they wish they never had, all in all a painful 200 yr experience.</p> <p>Back to a strong man issue, there are plenty of arguments people make that Sardar Patel should have been the first PM, not Nehru, for the very fact that he was not only popular, but also known as a stong leader.</p> Ends cannot justify means. Going back to my analogy, you should be able to celebrate the kid born out of rape without having to give ‘credit’ to the rapist or the rape.

Ok, I see what you are saying. I agree, ends do not justify the means. But this is all being discussed in hindsight where all one can really do is learn lessons, take what works, and move on.

But is it really the kid’s fault that it was born out of a crime? But the truth remains, the kid was a result of the crime. That is an objective fact. No one has to like it, but it is a fact that no one can change. This analogy is too simplistic and doesn’t do justice to the complicated nature and relationship Indians had with the British during colonial rule.

Indians learned a few things that were useful, learned a few things that they wish they never had, all in all a painful 200 yr experience.

Back to a strong man issue, there are plenty of arguments people make that Sardar Patel should have been the first PM, not Nehru, for the very fact that he was not only popular, but also known as a stong leader.

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