Comments on: Kissinger apologizes for the wrong thing http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Pravin http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-276640 Pravin Tue, 27 Jul 2010 19:26:10 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-276640 <p>Kissinger was one of the most despicable people to hold office at such a high level in U.S. history. The guy just has no freaking conscience.</p> Kissinger was one of the most despicable people to hold office at such a high level in U.S. history. The guy just has no freaking conscience.

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By: ronnieboy http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-276637 ronnieboy Tue, 27 Jul 2010 18:41:34 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-276637 <p>He was also responsible for the carpet bombing of Cambodia which killed 600,000 and gave rise to the Khmer Rouge.</p> He was also responsible for the carpet bombing of Cambodia which killed 600,000 and gave rise to the Khmer Rouge.

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By: iiiii http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-276625 iiiii Mon, 26 Jul 2010 18:06:20 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-276625 <p>gyguihoixagxuihc jksbhcuihx xhiojq</p> gyguihoixagxuihc jksbhcuihx xhiojq

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By: Kush Tandon http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-14861 Kush Tandon Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:09:15 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-14861 <p>Hi,</p> <p>About a year ago, at <a href="http://www.thesquare.com">www.thesquare.com</a>, somebody asked me to write a few paragraphs 101 on US-South Asia past, present and future.</p> <p>I again posted at <a href="http://www.kushtandon.squarespace.com/journal/2005/3/27/us-and-south-asia.html">http://www.kushtandon.squarespace.com/journal/2005/3/27/us-and-south-asia.html</a>. Some of you guys might want it interesting.</p> <p>Kush</p> Hi,

About a year ago, at http://www.thesquare.com, somebody asked me to write a few paragraphs 101 on US-South Asia past, present and future.

I again posted at http://www.kushtandon.squarespace.com/journal/2005/3/27/us-and-south-asia.html. Some of you guys might want it interesting.

Kush

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By: vurdlife http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-14852 vurdlife Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:53:31 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-14852 <p>good point razib, I think it is fair, when asking for support from the world community, to only expect such support for those humans who are suffering the most. Whether in congo, sudan, palestine, or elsewhere. At the same time it is quite fair for people to be more concerned with what happens within their in-group rather than some folks thousands of miles away. ALso I think it is perfectly legitimate for these "partisans" to appeal for help from the world community, (e.g. tsunami), you can't fault them for that. If anything, fault the world community for not being more objective (i.e. giving tons of loot to tsunami victims but balking on sudan literally for years)</p> good point razib, I think it is fair, when asking for support from the world community, to only expect such support for those humans who are suffering the most. Whether in congo, sudan, palestine, or elsewhere. At the same time it is quite fair for people to be more concerned with what happens within their in-group rather than some folks thousands of miles away. ALso I think it is perfectly legitimate for these “partisans” to appeal for help from the world community, (e.g. tsunami), you can’t fault them for that. If anything, fault the world community for not being more objective (i.e. giving tons of loot to tsunami victims but balking on sudan literally for years)

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By: George Bush http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-14851 George Bush Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:49:27 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-14851 <p>there is so much critcism toward the US...well what can you do? it is the lone superpower in the world, it can do whatever it wants, and it has. its their reward for all their smarts and hard work, don't you think? same with the UK...yes morally it should have done this and that, but regardless, admire its drive and determination and discipline...unlike India/Pak and everyone else in the developing world....perhaps India should have been exploring the oceans hundreds of years ago</p> there is so much critcism toward the US…well what can you do? it is the lone superpower in the world, it can do whatever it wants, and it has. its their reward for all their smarts and hard work, don’t you think? same with the UK…yes morally it should have done this and that, but regardless, admire its drive and determination and discipline…unlike India/Pak and everyone else in the developing world….perhaps India should have been exploring the oceans hundreds of years ago

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By: razib_the_atheist http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-14840 razib_the_atheist Sun, 03 Jul 2005 09:28:16 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-14840 <p><i>The House of Commons discussion is regarding the latest round of atrocities committed on Hindus which begins with Khaleda Zia's return to power in 2002(1?). Am I expecting too much of you to follow the link I have posted? Maybe not.</i></p> <p>dude, i only report what i see. i'm not going to follow the link because i haven't seen much objectivity from south asian "muslim" and "hindu" media sources, period (they make the america 'MSM' seem like the paragon of robotic objective rationality). i used to defend the BJP/RSS axis before the whole gujarat affair made me reconsider if hindutva was really the hindu version of christian democracy or the milder hindu version of something else* (hint: think little mustache). as for islam, i regularly assert that the religion needs to be "gelded," so i don't see me being partisan of either side.</p> <p>yes, there are atrocities on both sides, integrated over time since 1947 i'd say that the hindus have had the worst of it because of the more messed up nature of pakistan and bangladesh (you can lay the blame at islam's feet, it is irrelevant on the specific level). but of course, since 1996 the people of the congo basin have experienced atrocity on a scale that is almost an order of magnitude worse than anything going on in south asia (listen to interviews of pakistani and indian UN peace keepers on the BBC, they have seen the heart of darkness), so if i am honest with myself my only excessive concern over gujarat would be because i am brown and because my family is muslim...but since i don't particularly have much attachment to brownness and am antagonistic toward muslimness, the only concern should be fellow feeling. in which case, i should look to the congolese before getting concerned with 2000 fatalities in gujarat (that's a good day in kisingani). so i see hindus crying over atrocities against hindus, muslims shooting back with gujarat, and really a lot more coalitional identification and feeling for people "just like me" than universal humanitarian intent undernearth it all. now, i'm not one to say that universal humanitarian intent is the be-all-and-end-all (i'm close to being an egoist), but, it sure makes arguments with others easier when you can argue from a principled universalist viewpoint. but when partisans of various camps, whether they be hindu, muslim, jew, arab, etc. point to atrocities committed against their group i get frustrated, because of course atrocities are repulsive and unconscionable, but the i also am wary because i am skeptical of the concern that said individuals would have when atrocities are on the other foot (i suspect there would be some justification in some real-politik context).</p> <p>this is all to get to a final point, when "shiva," or a muslim, or an israeli,** or someone else, points me to atrocities and oppression, and wants me to be concerned, i get irritated, because 1) i'm an egoist, i have a hard time getting concerned about my own family, 2) i'm also pretty annoyed when people use language that is universalistic, and appeal to people outside their own group, but i suspect they wouldn't express such concern if outsiders were being gutted and cannibalized (like the ituri pygmies getting eaten by congolese rebels right now, not that that's not something anyone would be in favor of, but actually to get worked up over that, well...how many congolese live in the west and have control of media organs? a profile in THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE once a year is enough). people who have such a great concern for "their own kind" (to some extent this is natural, i admit) should simply keep aiming their message at their own kind, and not expect those of us who are not their kind to really care about their particular atrocities as long as they don't give similar attention to other people's atrocities.</p> <p>people have particular concerns. that's life.</p> <ul> <li>i think the the "secularist" position tends to generalize too much of the hindu nationalist position, so i still think that there are probably hindu democrats within that camp. but some of the extreme RSS types are insidious, a spade is a spade.</li> </ul> <p>** apologists for the palestinian side often complain that 1 jewish fatality gets about 100X more attention than 1 arab fatality. but of course, as many south asian muslims noted, 1 arab fatality at the hands of jews seem to concern the "islamic media" 100X more than 1 indian muslim fatality at the hands of hindus. of course, the gujarat massacre was an atrocity of course great proportions, but would we bat an eye if some intercommunal violence broke out somewhere like burkina faso or mozambique? after all, india is a democracy, there are civilized standards to uphold.</p> The House of Commons discussion is regarding the latest round of atrocities committed on Hindus which begins with Khaleda Zia’s return to power in 2002(1?). Am I expecting too much of you to follow the link I have posted? Maybe not.

dude, i only report what i see. i’m not going to follow the link because i haven’t seen much objectivity from south asian “muslim” and “hindu” media sources, period (they make the america ‘MSM’ seem like the paragon of robotic objective rationality). i used to defend the BJP/RSS axis before the whole gujarat affair made me reconsider if hindutva was really the hindu version of christian democracy or the milder hindu version of something else* (hint: think little mustache). as for islam, i regularly assert that the religion needs to be “gelded,” so i don’t see me being partisan of either side.

yes, there are atrocities on both sides, integrated over time since 1947 i’d say that the hindus have had the worst of it because of the more messed up nature of pakistan and bangladesh (you can lay the blame at islam’s feet, it is irrelevant on the specific level). but of course, since 1996 the people of the congo basin have experienced atrocity on a scale that is almost an order of magnitude worse than anything going on in south asia (listen to interviews of pakistani and indian UN peace keepers on the BBC, they have seen the heart of darkness), so if i am honest with myself my only excessive concern over gujarat would be because i am brown and because my family is muslim…but since i don’t particularly have much attachment to brownness and am antagonistic toward muslimness, the only concern should be fellow feeling. in which case, i should look to the congolese before getting concerned with 2000 fatalities in gujarat (that’s a good day in kisingani). so i see hindus crying over atrocities against hindus, muslims shooting back with gujarat, and really a lot more coalitional identification and feeling for people “just like me” than universal humanitarian intent undernearth it all. now, i’m not one to say that universal humanitarian intent is the be-all-and-end-all (i’m close to being an egoist), but, it sure makes arguments with others easier when you can argue from a principled universalist viewpoint. but when partisans of various camps, whether they be hindu, muslim, jew, arab, etc. point to atrocities committed against their group i get frustrated, because of course atrocities are repulsive and unconscionable, but the i also am wary because i am skeptical of the concern that said individuals would have when atrocities are on the other foot (i suspect there would be some justification in some real-politik context).

this is all to get to a final point, when “shiva,” or a muslim, or an israeli,** or someone else, points me to atrocities and oppression, and wants me to be concerned, i get irritated, because 1) i’m an egoist, i have a hard time getting concerned about my own family, 2) i’m also pretty annoyed when people use language that is universalistic, and appeal to people outside their own group, but i suspect they wouldn’t express such concern if outsiders were being gutted and cannibalized (like the ituri pygmies getting eaten by congolese rebels right now, not that that’s not something anyone would be in favor of, but actually to get worked up over that, well…how many congolese live in the west and have control of media organs? a profile in THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE once a year is enough). people who have such a great concern for “their own kind” (to some extent this is natural, i admit) should simply keep aiming their message at their own kind, and not expect those of us who are not their kind to really care about their particular atrocities as long as they don’t give similar attention to other people’s atrocities.

people have particular concerns. that’s life.

  • i think the the “secularist” position tends to generalize too much of the hindu nationalist position, so i still think that there are probably hindu democrats within that camp. but some of the extreme RSS types are insidious, a spade is a spade.

** apologists for the palestinian side often complain that 1 jewish fatality gets about 100X more attention than 1 arab fatality. but of course, as many south asian muslims noted, 1 arab fatality at the hands of jews seem to concern the “islamic media” 100X more than 1 indian muslim fatality at the hands of hindus. of course, the gujarat massacre was an atrocity of course great proportions, but would we bat an eye if some intercommunal violence broke out somewhere like burkina faso or mozambique? after all, india is a democracy, there are civilized standards to uphold.

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By: Rezwan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-14839 Rezwan Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:42:31 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-14839 <p>Razib has said a lot. I would request the commentators like TTG, Shiva & KXB to browse through different sources (not only Indian but also Bangladeshi and international) before quoting just one.</p> <p>We should really look why the misconceptions are there in the first place. The thing is that Bangladeshi media is a taboo in India (readers in Mumbai or Chennai do you get any Bangladeshi TV channels or newspapers?). But there is no restrictions against Indian media to enter Bangladesh.</p> <p>Indian TV shows invariably feature diplomats and ministers, and treat Bangladesh like an evil neighbour. They don't talk of any of the larger issues, such as Bangladesh's apparent internal struggle with hardline elements and there's never enough time to get beyond pointing fingers at evil "Dhaka".</p> <p>So how can you get a different perspective?</p> <p>Bangladesh is a nation of 140 million people. There are opposition parties and followers which count almost half of the population. The ruling BNP government is facing opposition and protests from these quarters because of its alliance with the Islamists. You will hardly find any support for the Islamists activities in the mainstream print and broadcasting medias (except from a few Islamist newspapers). Read how many attacks against hindus and how many attacks against muslims are there in one day. Read that how Bangladesh is grateful for India's support in the liberation war. There are voices out there you do not hear, there are columns out there you do not read.</p> <p>Tip: <a href="http://www.bangladeshjournal.com/">Did you ever read the Bangladeshi online journals & nespapers?</a></p> <p>I admit that there is a threat of extremism, there are minorities attacked. But the headlines you do not see that also the poor muslims are attacked and exploited by the opportunists. Actually this shows that the law order system is corrupted and are controlled by the rich. So not the minority hindus alone, the poor and destitute Muslims are also mistreated. The politically motivated law fails to protect everyone.</p> <p>And yet the people like us, who inherit the ghost of the Hindu-Muslim dichotomy that our forefathers carried, interpret these as attacks against Hindus or Muslims. And we try to instigate more hatred against Indians and Bangladeshis without understanding the politics behind it.</p> <p>India-bashing is the powerful political weapon that is now being used by present BNP government. Is the relationship between India and Bangladesh really so bad that Indians have to be panicked? Unfriendly Bangladesh government you would say.. is it so?</p> <p>One BNP lawmaker Mr. Motlub (owner of NITOL group-agent of TATA motors in Bangladesh) talks rudely against India in podium but makes sure that his business is not hampered by protective budget rulings. About 80% of the ruling party lawmakers are businessmen and many are linked with India. Would they want any impediment to their trade with a bad relation? Never. Indian goods (including media) have a big business in Bangladesh. There is a huge trade imbalance. The Bangladeshi TVs are not aired by cable operators in India. Bangladeshi companies give ads in Indian media because they have a good viewership in Bangladesh. The tensions are being kept alive for political reasons.</p> <p>Sorry for the long post. I covered more areas in one of my posts about <a href="http://rezwanul.blogspot.com/2004/10/india-bangladesh-relationship-india.html"> the India -Bangladesh relation</a>.</p> Razib has said a lot. I would request the commentators like TTG, Shiva & KXB to browse through different sources (not only Indian but also Bangladeshi and international) before quoting just one.

We should really look why the misconceptions are there in the first place. The thing is that Bangladeshi media is a taboo in India (readers in Mumbai or Chennai do you get any Bangladeshi TV channels or newspapers?). But there is no restrictions against Indian media to enter Bangladesh.

Indian TV shows invariably feature diplomats and ministers, and treat Bangladesh like an evil neighbour. They don’t talk of any of the larger issues, such as Bangladesh’s apparent internal struggle with hardline elements and there’s never enough time to get beyond pointing fingers at evil “Dhaka”.

So how can you get a different perspective?

Bangladesh is a nation of 140 million people. There are opposition parties and followers which count almost half of the population. The ruling BNP government is facing opposition and protests from these quarters because of its alliance with the Islamists. You will hardly find any support for the Islamists activities in the mainstream print and broadcasting medias (except from a few Islamist newspapers). Read how many attacks against hindus and how many attacks against muslims are there in one day. Read that how Bangladesh is grateful for India’s support in the liberation war. There are voices out there you do not hear, there are columns out there you do not read.

Tip: Did you ever read the Bangladeshi online journals & nespapers?

I admit that there is a threat of extremism, there are minorities attacked. But the headlines you do not see that also the poor muslims are attacked and exploited by the opportunists. Actually this shows that the law order system is corrupted and are controlled by the rich. So not the minority hindus alone, the poor and destitute Muslims are also mistreated. The politically motivated law fails to protect everyone.

And yet the people like us, who inherit the ghost of the Hindu-Muslim dichotomy that our forefathers carried, interpret these as attacks against Hindus or Muslims. And we try to instigate more hatred against Indians and Bangladeshis without understanding the politics behind it.

India-bashing is the powerful political weapon that is now being used by present BNP government. Is the relationship between India and Bangladesh really so bad that Indians have to be panicked? Unfriendly Bangladesh government you would say.. is it so?

One BNP lawmaker Mr. Motlub (owner of NITOL group-agent of TATA motors in Bangladesh) talks rudely against India in podium but makes sure that his business is not hampered by protective budget rulings. About 80% of the ruling party lawmakers are businessmen and many are linked with India. Would they want any impediment to their trade with a bad relation? Never. Indian goods (including media) have a big business in Bangladesh. There is a huge trade imbalance. The Bangladeshi TVs are not aired by cable operators in India. Bangladeshi companies give ads in Indian media because they have a good viewership in Bangladesh. The tensions are being kept alive for political reasons.

Sorry for the long post. I covered more areas in one of my posts about the India -Bangladesh relation.

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By: shiva http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-14834 shiva Sun, 03 Jul 2005 04:53:48 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-14834 <p>Thanks Razib and Al Mujahid. But then I had to check my post once again to verify that I had posted this link http://www.hinducounciluk.org/bhhrv.asp. The Ayodhya incident happened in 1992. The House of Commons discussion is regarding the latest round of atrocities committed on Hindus which begins with Khaleda Zia's return to power in 2002(1?). Am I expecting too much of you to follow the link I have posted? Maybe not.</p> <p>The exchange of populations of Hindus and Sikhs from West Punjab to East and the other way round of the Muslims changed the face of Punjab for good. Before 1948 Lahore was a Hindu majority city as Jalandhar and Ludhiana to quite an extent were Muslim mojority cities. The first partition of Punjab occured earlier in the 19th century when NWFP was carved out of it.</p> Thanks Razib and Al Mujahid. But then I had to check my post once again to verify that I had posted this link http://www.hinducounciluk.org/bhhrv.asp. The Ayodhya incident happened in 1992. The House of Commons discussion is regarding the latest round of atrocities committed on Hindus which begins with Khaleda Zia’s return to power in 2002(1?). Am I expecting too much of you to follow the link I have posted? Maybe not.

The exchange of populations of Hindus and Sikhs from West Punjab to East and the other way round of the Muslims changed the face of Punjab for good. Before 1948 Lahore was a Hindu majority city as Jalandhar and Ludhiana to quite an extent were Muslim mojority cities. The first partition of Punjab occured earlier in the 19th century when NWFP was carved out of it.

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By: razib_the_atheist http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/07/01/kissinger_apolo/comment-page-1/#comment-14829 razib_the_atheist Sun, 03 Jul 2005 02:32:13 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1795#comment-14829 <p>p.s. my impression of the religious situation is that there was a lot more tolerance than i expected. my uncle, who is an imam, had no problem showing me a buddhist monastery next to one of my other uncle's houses. also, i noted that hindu women were prominently walking around with that little streak on their foreheads, which of course is the main way you can distinguish them from the rest of the population, seeing as how only 10% dress "islamic."</p> p.s. my impression of the religious situation is that there was a lot more tolerance than i expected. my uncle, who is an imam, had no problem showing me a buddhist monastery next to one of my other uncle’s houses. also, i noted that hindu women were prominently walking around with that little streak on their foreheads, which of course is the main way you can distinguish them from the rest of the population, seeing as how only 10% dress “islamic.”

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