Comments on: Did ‘Indians’ colonize Europe? http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/ All that flavorful brownness in one savory packet Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:11:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Ag http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-287591 Ag Sun, 11 Dec 2011 12:05:59 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-287591 <p>Further, to add to the above: as these ancient Indians migrated to the West, setting up petty chiefdoms, bringing their culture to uncivilized lands and\or putting in place military outposts, they would also have interacted with or outright conquered non-Indian peoples wherever they went. Proof of this is found in the famous Mitanni of the Middle-East, a Hurrian state that was ruled by an Indian elite, with Kings such as Tushrata, Artatama, Vasashatta frequently engaging in military disputes with surrounding non-Indian states such as Egypt to the south and the Hittites to the North and NW. The name Vasashatta is also, in my opinion, the same as Vasistha in Indic Sanskrit -as opposed to the no doubt slightly corrupted form of Sanskrit that would have been spoken by these Mitanni- who was said to have visited a great thousand pillared city in Mesopotamia in early antiquity.</p> <p>Then there are the so-called Heqqa Kashewet ('foreign rulers'- Hyskos in Greek) elite that conquered Egypt later on, a group of foreigners that ruled over Egypt for 200 years, appearing at around the same time as the Mitanni.</p> <p>That the Sarasvati Civilization was the precursor -among many other smaller states- to the Mauryan empire (identifiable with the Northern Black Polished Ware, archaeologically) is well known and established by now, thus completely rubbishing the notion of there ever having been an influx of peoples into India. Devilish little details- such as the use of the same system of weights, the game of dice being a favourite pastime of both the 'Harappans' and the Mauryans and later Indians, same layout of cities, etc (for more, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Black_Polished_Ware)- are proof enough for someone with half a brain. The question then becomes- what became of the Indians that lived in the Sarasvati network after the river dried up, a process that would have taken hundreds, if not thousands, of years to take place? The Rg Veda mentions that there was a '15 year drought', during which time 'rshis and great sages roamed the banks of the river'. There is no doubt in my mind that this was when the hymns of the Rg Veda were finally collated (composition would have taken place thousands of years earlier) into one 'Veda', presumably by chief among the rshis, Vyaasa. This would have been followed by a gradual migration of some tribes to the east and south, as well as to the west, and it was this group of people moving west that settled down in Iran, Anatolia, Egypt, and so on, bringing their language, gods and customs with them. Archaeological evidence points to the fact that the Indus network had ceased to be a major power by 1500 BC, which would meaning the drought, the collation of the Rg Veda, and subsequent migration of peoples would have begun centuries earlier, which tallies perfectly with the dates of the Indian kingdoms that sprung up in the near West.</p> Further, to add to the above: as these ancient Indians migrated to the West, setting up petty chiefdoms, bringing their culture to uncivilized lands and\or putting in place military outposts, they would also have interacted with or outright conquered non-Indian peoples wherever they went. Proof of this is found in the famous Mitanni of the Middle-East, a Hurrian state that was ruled by an Indian elite, with Kings such as Tushrata, Artatama, Vasashatta frequently engaging in military disputes with surrounding non-Indian states such as Egypt to the south and the Hittites to the North and NW. The name Vasashatta is also, in my opinion, the same as Vasistha in Indic Sanskrit -as opposed to the no doubt slightly corrupted form of Sanskrit that would have been spoken by these Mitanni- who was said to have visited a great thousand pillared city in Mesopotamia in early antiquity.

Then there are the so-called Heqqa Kashewet (‘foreign rulers’- Hyskos in Greek) elite that conquered Egypt later on, a group of foreigners that ruled over Egypt for 200 years, appearing at around the same time as the Mitanni.

That the Sarasvati Civilization was the precursor -among many other smaller states- to the Mauryan empire (identifiable with the Northern Black Polished Ware, archaeologically) is well known and established by now, thus completely rubbishing the notion of there ever having been an influx of peoples into India. Devilish little details- such as the use of the same system of weights, the game of dice being a favourite pastime of both the ‘Harappans’ and the Mauryans and later Indians, same layout of cities, etc (for more, read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Black_Polished_Ware)- are proof enough for someone with half a brain. The question then becomes- what became of the Indians that lived in the Sarasvati network after the river dried up, a process that would have taken hundreds, if not thousands, of years to take place? The Rg Veda mentions that there was a ’15 year drought’, during which time ‘rshis and great sages roamed the banks of the river’. There is no doubt in my mind that this was when the hymns of the Rg Veda were finally collated (composition would have taken place thousands of years earlier) into one ‘Veda’, presumably by chief among the rshis, Vyaasa. This would have been followed by a gradual migration of some tribes to the east and south, as well as to the west, and it was this group of people moving west that settled down in Iran, Anatolia, Egypt, and so on, bringing their language, gods and customs with them. Archaeological evidence points to the fact that the Indus network had ceased to be a major power by 1500 BC, which would meaning the drought, the collation of the Rg Veda, and subsequent migration of peoples would have begun centuries earlier, which tallies perfectly with the dates of the Indian kingdoms that sprung up in the near West.

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By: Ag http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-287590 Ag Sun, 11 Dec 2011 11:39:56 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-287590 <p>Very glad people are finally waking up and learning to rubbish the nonsense theories cooked up by random barbarian peasants from the west. Six years on, that is.</p> <p>I suggest people reading this look up the Gundestrup cauldron and note the similarity of this celtic work of 'art' with that of the Pashupati Indus seal from 3000 years earlier. This and more evidence- such as the mention of the tribe of Druhyus [Druids] having been driven to the west after the Battle of the Ten Kings in the Rg Veda, or the fact that there is absolutely NO archaelogical evidence to support the theory of there having been any significant influx of peoples INTO India after 25000 ybp (check the Genographic Project for more genetic proof), or indeed the fact that other IE nations such as the Iranians still retain a memory of an IMmigration from India. The Iranians (by which I mean ancient Persians, of course) believed their homeland was the land of the Hapta-Hendu ('Sapta-Sindhu'), which was 'too hot for man', and in parallel the Airyanam Vaejo, which was 'too cold' with a harsh winter (Kashmir).</p> <p>The fact that Indus sites are the oldest urban sites in South Asia and the oldest Indo-Iranian civilization (I prefer the term Indo-Iranian to Indo-European, why associate with a bunch of barbarians that were not civilized until Indian 800 BC, by which time India had already passed through a creation-destruction cycle?) , older even than Egypt, with Mehrgarh (7000 BC) proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earliest phases of settlement and transition to subsistence and agriculture, thence on to actual civilization and the building of city-networks- all happened right here, in India- pretty much proves it was a migration from the East (i.e. the Indus valley), on to the arid plateau of Iran, which has no fertile river valleys on the scale of the Sarasvati, the Sindhu, or even the Nile to support the birth of a civilization - common sense, really- and thence on to Asia Minor and Europe, settling first in the easternmost edge of Europe- Greece, and later Italy.</p> Very glad people are finally waking up and learning to rubbish the nonsense theories cooked up by random barbarian peasants from the west. Six years on, that is.

I suggest people reading this look up the Gundestrup cauldron and note the similarity of this celtic work of ‘art’ with that of the Pashupati Indus seal from 3000 years earlier. This and more evidence- such as the mention of the tribe of Druhyus [Druids] having been driven to the west after the Battle of the Ten Kings in the Rg Veda, or the fact that there is absolutely NO archaelogical evidence to support the theory of there having been any significant influx of peoples INTO India after 25000 ybp (check the Genographic Project for more genetic proof), or indeed the fact that other IE nations such as the Iranians still retain a memory of an IMmigration from India. The Iranians (by which I mean ancient Persians, of course) believed their homeland was the land of the Hapta-Hendu (‘Sapta-Sindhu’), which was ‘too hot for man’, and in parallel the Airyanam Vaejo, which was ‘too cold’ with a harsh winter (Kashmir).

The fact that Indus sites are the oldest urban sites in South Asia and the oldest Indo-Iranian civilization (I prefer the term Indo-Iranian to Indo-European, why associate with a bunch of barbarians that were not civilized until Indian 800 BC, by which time India had already passed through a creation-destruction cycle?) , older even than Egypt, with Mehrgarh (7000 BC) proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that the earliest phases of settlement and transition to subsistence and agriculture, thence on to actual civilization and the building of city-networks- all happened right here, in India- pretty much proves it was a migration from the East (i.e. the Indus valley), on to the arid plateau of Iran, which has no fertile river valleys on the scale of the Sarasvati, the Sindhu, or even the Nile to support the birth of a civilization – common sense, really- and thence on to Asia Minor and Europe, settling first in the easternmost edge of Europe- Greece, and later Italy.

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By: Sameer http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-267384 Sameer Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:37:28 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-267384 <p>Scientific racism in the Western world gave birth to more than the Aryan-Dravidian theory:</p> <p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism</p> Scientific racism in the Western world gave birth to more than the Aryan-Dravidian theory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

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By: Sameer http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-267383 Sameer Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:25:04 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-267383 <h1>25</h1> <p>Great. Replace Europe stupid Aryan-Dravidian race theory and replace with African stupid Aryan-Dravidian race theory.</p> <p>Lets get the origin of the words out in the open:</p> <p>"...As an adaptation of the Latin Arianus, referring to Iran, 'Aryan' has "long been in English language use".[3] Its history as a loan word began in the late 1700s, when the word was borrowed from Sanskrit ā́rya- to refer to speaker of North Indian languages.[3]. When it was determined that Iranian languages — both living and ancient — used a similar term in much the same way (but in the Iranian context as a self-identifier of Iranian peoples), it became apparent that the shared meaning had to derive from the ancestor language of the shared past, and so, by the early 1800s, the word 'Aryan' came to refer to the group of languages deriving from that ancestor language, and by extension, the speakers of those languages.[4]</p> <p>Then, in the 1830s, based on the erroneous theory that words like "Aryan" could also be found in European languages, the term "Aryan" came to be used as the term for the Indo-European language group, and by extension, the speakers of those languages. In the 19th century, "language" was still considered a property of "ethnicity", and thus the speakers of the Indo-European languages came to be the so-called "Aryan race", as contradistinguished from the so-called "Semitic race". By the late 19th century, the notions of an "Aryan race" became closely linked to Nordicism, which posited Northern European racial superiority over all other peoples (including Indians). This "master race" ideal engendered both the "Aryanization" programs of Nazi Germany, in which the classification of people as "Aryan" and "non-Aryan" was most emphatically directed towards the exclusion of Jews.[5][n 2] By the end of World War II, the word 'Aryan' had become firmly associated with the racial theories and atrocities committed by the Nazi regime.</p> <p>In colloquial modern English it is typically used to signify the Nordic racial ideal promoted by the Nazis. As the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language states at the beginning of its definition, "Aryan, a word nowadays referring to the blond-haired, blue-eyed physical ideal of Nazi Germany, originally referred to a people who looked vastly different. Its history starts with the ancient Indo-Iranians, peoples who inhabited parts of what are now Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India."[1][6]</p> <p>In present-day India, the original ethno-linguistic signifier has been mostly lost, the denotation having been semantically replaced by other, secondary, meanings. In Iran, the original self-identifier lives on in ethnic names like "Alani", "Ir", and in the name of Iran itself.[7] In present-day academia, the terms "Indo-Iranian" and "Indo-European" have made most uses of the term 'Aryan' obsolete, and 'Aryan' is now mostly limited to its appearance in the term "Indo-Aryan" to represent (speakers of) North Indian languages. Notions of an "Aryan race" only survive in the context of fascist nationalism, in which nationhood is defined by ancestry...." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan</p> 25

Great. Replace Europe stupid Aryan-Dravidian race theory and replace with African stupid Aryan-Dravidian race theory.

Lets get the origin of the words out in the open:

“…As an adaptation of the Latin Arianus, referring to Iran, ‘Aryan’ has “long been in English language use”.[3] Its history as a loan word began in the late 1700s, when the word was borrowed from Sanskrit ā́rya- to refer to speaker of North Indian languages.[3]. When it was determined that Iranian languages — both living and ancient — used a similar term in much the same way (but in the Iranian context as a self-identifier of Iranian peoples), it became apparent that the shared meaning had to derive from the ancestor language of the shared past, and so, by the early 1800s, the word ‘Aryan’ came to refer to the group of languages deriving from that ancestor language, and by extension, the speakers of those languages.[4]

Then, in the 1830s, based on the erroneous theory that words like “Aryan” could also be found in European languages, the term “Aryan” came to be used as the term for the Indo-European language group, and by extension, the speakers of those languages. In the 19th century, “language” was still considered a property of “ethnicity”, and thus the speakers of the Indo-European languages came to be the so-called “Aryan race”, as contradistinguished from the so-called “Semitic race”. By the late 19th century, the notions of an “Aryan race” became closely linked to Nordicism, which posited Northern European racial superiority over all other peoples (including Indians). This “master race” ideal engendered both the “Aryanization” programs of Nazi Germany, in which the classification of people as “Aryan” and “non-Aryan” was most emphatically directed towards the exclusion of Jews.[5][n 2] By the end of World War II, the word ‘Aryan’ had become firmly associated with the racial theories and atrocities committed by the Nazi regime.

In colloquial modern English it is typically used to signify the Nordic racial ideal promoted by the Nazis. As the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language states at the beginning of its definition, “Aryan, a word nowadays referring to the blond-haired, blue-eyed physical ideal of Nazi Germany, originally referred to a people who looked vastly different. Its history starts with the ancient Indo-Iranians, peoples who inhabited parts of what are now Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.”[1][6]

In present-day India, the original ethno-linguistic signifier has been mostly lost, the denotation having been semantically replaced by other, secondary, meanings. In Iran, the original self-identifier lives on in ethnic names like “Alani”, “Ir”, and in the name of Iran itself.[7] In present-day academia, the terms “Indo-Iranian” and “Indo-European” have made most uses of the term ‘Aryan’ obsolete, and ‘Aryan’ is now mostly limited to its appearance in the term “Indo-Aryan” to represent (speakers of) North Indian languages. Notions of an “Aryan race” only survive in the context of fascist nationalism, in which nationhood is defined by ancestry….” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

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By: Jugg-Nasty http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-267377 Jugg-Nasty Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:58:15 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-267377 <p>yall are a bunch of fucking nerds, go get laid</p> yall are a bunch of fucking nerds, go get laid

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By: jayan http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-259689 jayan Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:24:12 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-259689 <p>how do we go about establishing the out of india theory? or any other theory against the AIT for that matter?</p> <p>DNA even mt-dna has around a million molecular leisons occuring per cell/per day and hence DNA cannot be used in racial classification.</p> <p>so where in you opinion is the origin of the caucasoid features? is it indus valley or fertile crescent or caucasus/russia?</p> how do we go about establishing the out of india theory? or any other theory against the AIT for that matter?

DNA even mt-dna has around a million molecular leisons occuring per cell/per day and hence DNA cannot be used in racial classification.

so where in you opinion is the origin of the caucasoid features? is it indus valley or fertile crescent or caucasus/russia?

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By: Matt http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-244071 Matt Sat, 18 Jul 2009 01:57:00 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-244071 <p>i think this is gay</p> i think this is gay

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By: AryaPutra http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-243972 AryaPutra Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:46:12 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-243972 <p>Indians are Aryans and Aryans are Indians. End of discussion.</p> Indians are Aryans and Aryans are Indians. End of discussion.

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By: Goutham http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-209477 Goutham Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:34:11 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-209477 <p>Aryan Invasion theory is a joke. The only reality is there for you in India's ancient texts (which is too huge a collection compared to rest-of-the-world's ancient literature combined).</p> Aryan Invasion theory is a joke. The only reality is there for you in India’s ancient texts (which is too huge a collection compared to rest-of-the-world’s ancient literature combined).

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By: gaurav shukla http://sepiamutiny.com/blog/2005/05/12/did_indians_col/comment-page-1/#comment-196196 gaurav shukla Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:47:32 +0000 http://sepiamutiny.com?p=1542#comment-196196 <p>I've been debating Aryan Invasion and non-invasion theories past several months, and ur guys posts above, further complicates it all!</p> <p>Any info, inputs or bullshit on Aryan invasion theory : plz. mail me at britsin@gmail.com</p> <p>gaurav,</p> <p>lucknow (UP)</p> I’ve been debating Aryan Invasion and non-invasion theories past several months, and ur guys posts above, further complicates it all!

Any info, inputs or bullshit on Aryan invasion theory : plz. mail me at britsin@gmail.com

gaurav,

lucknow (UP)

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